skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
When was the railways nationalised well past WW1? WW2?
Second referendum : am I missing something ? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Alan Dugdales Moustache
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When was the railways nationalised well past WW1? WW2?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
"WTO is not the be-all & end-all." - If we don't leave with a deal we will be trading under WTO rules, that's fact.
"And again...everybody wants a deal. One which suits THEM" - maybe, but every country has to submit a schedule to the WTO, (which then has to be ratified by all other members). You cannot move away from the terms of that schedule with another country until both parties have signed a trade deal.
You cannot move away from the terms of that schedule to help or hinder a particular trading partner. Look how long trade deals take, we will be trading under WTO rules with tariffs imposed with many countries with whom we are now doing free trade with for quite some time, look how long trade deals take to negotiate.
CETA took 7 years, OK, that was a block of 28 countries negotiating.
The average US trade deal takes 4 years to implement. We're not going to be trading freely with the rest of the world for some time if we don't sigh a deal.
If there's anything I've written that's incorrect I'd be glad to hear why.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Tony you said they were only nationalised during the war years.
I was merely pointing out that the nationalisation pre the Great War continued beyond 1918 and even then on return to privatisation companies weee forced to merge to get an operations permit.
You’ve stated this is a core socialist principal. I do not agree with you. There are many countries who have a right of centre culture who’ve had a public transport system for decades.
When do you think there was last a real socialist Labour Party Tony?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Brexit hasn’t happened before but people trading with the EU on WTO terms has and still does. You don’t think people have looked at that, compared it to free trade as an EU member and drawn a conclusion based on actual events? You seem to think that they’ve stuck a finger up in the air based on no one leaving the EU before. There’s live, real and tangible evidence for drawing a conclusion on a no deal brexit. It’s not a mystery just because no one has ever left the EU before, plenty have never joined and trade with the EU on WTO terms as a point of reference. Life outside the EU on WTO looks like A, life within the EU looks like B. The no one has ever left the EU argument is a hoax.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Better get back onto Wiki Tony
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
No I didn’t. I said that in reply to you saying that the trains we’re nationalised pre labour. As far as I know that only other times railways have been brought under government control was during war time. After the wars they returned to private hands and were eventually nationalised in the true sense of the word by labour with the arrival of British Rail.
Other countries do have nationalised railways but it’s never happened in this country under anyone other than the left except in times of war. In this country it’s happened out of political ideology. Is that the reason it happened in other countries? NHS the same, born in this country out of political ideology. Just because other countries have a NHS doesn’t mean it would have happened here without the left.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Who then? Are you counting overseas territories? I bet you are.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Tony you said no one has ever left the Eu before
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
So overseas territories then. Like I said.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
So when you said no one has left the EU what did you mean? The uk?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Which countries have left the EU? It’s a simple question.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Well one country has Tony I’ll keave you to your favourite friend to find who
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You still haven’t answered the question. Which country?
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
1. We don't know what exactly will happen - this is a unique situation
2. As 5th largest economy in the world...I'd be most surprised if the wheels were not put into motion behind the scenes,immediately post referendum result, for a no-deal
3. The will is there to make a deal - it will happen
That's my opinion. From the day I accepted the result of the referendum & the fact we are leaving nobody has yet thrown anything into the mix that has changed my opinion. Seversl things have made me question myself...but none have changed my mind.
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
It is not a hoax Tony. It is a reality...a fact
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I didn’t mean in the literal sense (although you may want to point that out to Grendull). I mean in the sense that no one can say no one has done it before so no one can predict what WTO will mean for the U.K. with regards to Europe. Lots of people trade with the EU on WTO terms. There’s a precedent. It is possible to say we have A as EU members and we’ll lose B as non EU members on WTO terms. It’s not a mystery what either mean, it’s happening day in day out. It’s actually one of the few things people can say with conviction, it’s not even a guess.
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clint van damme
Well-Known Member
we can know a lot more if we go under WTO terms in the event of a no deal because the conditions we would be trading under the day after we leave will be set in stone at least in the short to medium term. .
If there's a deal then we can't be sure until the terms of the deal are known. We may even end up in the customs union or end up with a lengthy transition period. That would put a different perspective on things.
My questions are relating purely to a no deal which is looking more likely although that may be just posturing from the various parties though I get the feeling it isn't, you think we'll get a deal and I sincerely hope you're right. The thought of our economy's success hinging on the negotiating skills of Liam Fox makes me shiver.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Yes - you miss another option (because it is positive) that C other non-EU member want to work with & do increased business with us!
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SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
I doubt in reality that Liam Fox is allowed anywhere near the real bargaining meetings.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Which ones?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
they will, there's no doubt about that. But as I keep repeating, they won't be on favourable terms until we can agree trade deals. They don't happen overnight.
We won't wake up to free trade deals on the 30th March, they will take years to put in place.
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
My bad missed out the word 'might'...but since you ask China & Australia have indicated future deals in the offing most recently.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Australia is also in talks with the EU on a free trade agreement. They’ve also said any deal with us is likely to be similar so I’m not sure why we need to leave the EU to get a deal with Australia. Although to be fair you are correct in saying that they have voiced an appetite to do a deal with us.
China is a difficult one because they infringe things like intellectual rights without thinking about it so it’s a harder nut to crack for a large trading group like the EU or indeed the US as the current trade war confirms. Question is how balanced will it be?
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Astute
Well-Known Member
So the EU would be better off?
Because as soon as they decide they want a free trade deal it will be agreed on. If they want to punish people....or just want our money each year however much damage it may cause all over Europe then WTO rules it is.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
When are you going to pull your head out of your arse?
The 27 are united in protecting the single market. It’s at the front of their thoughts. The only reason you feel they want to punish us is because you have no grasp on what is actually happened and you buy the empty rhetoric of brexit backers who always warned us that the EU is a protectionist organisation. It was never going to be any other way.
Astute
Well-Known Member
How immigrants affect jobs and wages
FactCheck: does immigration drive down wages?
And no immigrants commit crime. So of course crime numbers are not up because of immigration
Up to one in three Romanians arrested, figures show
Astute
Well-Known Member
Head out of my arse?
How about a reality check for you?
Those who take money out of the EU want us to continue giving them money. Those who like us put money into the EU want us to continue to put billions in each year. So of course they all want us to stay in.
So come on then Einstein. How would a free trade deal be against the single market? You would think it was us that sells twice the amount to them than we buy.
Malaka
Well-Known Member
I agree with you in principle. I voted remain, if given the chance again I would vote leave because I respect Democracy.I don't like the EU I think its needs to be reformed, we should be doing that from within. I also think that we will struggle outside of the EU and it is in their best interest to ensure that we do, to say to member states 'See what happens when you go it alone?' The only ones that ever said we would get a deal were the Brexiteers. I am aware that people had different reasons to remain and leave and you have to respect personal opinion, its not all about the economy, until it collapses. I do think at some point we will apply for membership again, but we will lose our currency and our veto. I compare our situation to Stormy Daniels (well and truly fucked!) but I really hope I am wrong.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
the EU won't be better off. But that won't give me any comfort if our economy goes into a nose dive.
But every country in the EU will be taking the hit of poorer trading terms with one country. Well be taking the hit of poorer trading terms with around 80. Who do you think is getting the shittier end of that stick?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
If you need to ask the last question then the situation really is beyond you. You’re basically dismissing the leave argument on trade and you don’t understand that. I’m going to give you the best free advice again. Probably best you sit this one out.
You use the trade deficit in a context like it has a relevance. Trade with the EU equates to something like 13% of the U.K. economy, EU trade with the U.K. equates to about 4% of the EU’s economy. That 4% is also shared amongst the 27 members so when you break it down to each member you’re talking about a percentage of a percentage. Why is France going to accept a deal that sets a benchmark for Australian wine to come into the EU tariff free at the expense of their own wine industry based on a percentage of a percentage? Why are Spain going to accept a deal that sets a benchmark for non EU growers of citrus fruit to bring citrus fruit into the EU at the expense of their own farming industry based on a percentage of a percentage? The story is the same for all members of the EU. It’s not about punishing us it’s about protecting the single market to protect their own interests. This was all pointed out in the campaigns. You seem to forget that this was a large part of the leave campaign that we couldn’t change the way they are as members. Do you seriously think that we exert more influence by leaving? That’s basically what you’re saying. You’re delusional.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Anyway back to the specific topic the rather disheveled looking Mr Euro (I managed to spell Euro) insisted there was a growing demand for a second referendum. So Dimbleby asked for a show of hands. It was 70-30 against.
Mr Euro started looking shifty as he was then advised a poll released today showed that the desire for a second referendum has shown no upward movement in two years and the vast majority do not want it.
Even Miranda Green the pro remain former press secretary to Paddy Ashdown admitted it would be a terrible idea and would lead to another leave vote (probably by a greater margin) and that there is zero option but to exit the Eu.
Mr Euro started looking shifty as he was then advised a poll released today showed that the desire for a second referendum has shown no upward movement in two years and the vast majority do not want it.
Even Miranda Green the pro remain former press secretary to Paddy Ashdown admitted it would be a terrible idea and would lead to another leave vote (probably by a greater margin) and that there is zero option but to exit the Eu.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Why the UK trade deficit with the EU is woeful and widening | Larry Elliott
Motor vehicle trade between the UK and its main EU partners | European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA)
So what influence do we have in the EU?
Yet we have trade around the world growing at pace. Being free from the EU rules will help it to continue.
UK exports to non EU countries continue to outstrip EU
But as you say it is the UK that will suffer and nobody else. So I looked at Spain first
Spanish exports already feeling the brunt of Brexit
Or how about Germany? There biggest export is cars. We are one of their biggest export areas. A no deal would hurt it badly.
No-deal Brexit ‘adds €2bn’ to German cars
So the UK buys about a fifth of the cars Germany exports. Can you see a problem there?
You make out that nobody in the EU will feel anything. But it depends on what they sell to us.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Again you’re talking about percentages of a percentage. In fact if you’re going to isolate one industry in one country you’re talking about a percentage of a percentage of a percentage. I never said it wouldn’t hurt but you don’t have to be a mathematician to understand that loosing a percentage of 4% is going to hurt less than a full 13% on your own. You’ve sold this floored theory that it’s all down to one Lex Luther type super villain called Junker and you still can’t get your head around that it’s 27 members all with their own motives. So for arguments sake let’s say Germany votes for a U.K. free trade agreement contrary to the principles of the single market to protect the German car industry but Denmark vetoes it to look after their interests in pig farming and pork production. There isn’t a free trade agreement. Even if Junker backs it, Luxembourg and their evil tax laws you bore on about as if it has some bearing on brexit back it and everyone else backs it it doesn’t matter. One country using their veto (as we repeatedly have to scupper EU trade negotiations with India) to protect the single market to protect their own interests is all it will take. You can post as many links as you like it doesn’t change that all 27 nations has a veto and all will put themselves before the U.K. or other EU nations for that matter. Your so fixated on the side show your missing the big picture.
You’re link about the U.K. exports outstripping EU exports is great. It dismisses the argument for leaving the EU on trade and you also assume that other countries in the EU aren’t enjoying similar growth with the rest of the world.
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