The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (9 Viewers)

[Sky Blue Pete]

I still can’t believe a majority of us lot voted for leave. Idiots

 

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[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I still can’t believe a majority of us lot voted for leave. Idiots

Rightly or wrongly, many people voted to leave due to that very same condescending sneering that you are doing here.

You're better than that.

 

[skybluetony176]

Rightly or wrongly, many people voted to leave due to that very same condescending sneering that you are doing here.

You're better than that.

So you’re saying people understood it was a stupid idea but voted leave anyway to teach those that said it was stupid a lesson?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Rightly or wrongly, many people voted to leave due to that very same condescending sneering that you are doing here.

You're better than that.

I think I was thinking better of people than that!! Most on here are as bright and many are far brighter than me. The majority of whom voted to leave. Idiots was probably harsh but it still surprises me

 

[skybluetony176]

I still can’t believe a majority of us lot voted for leave. Idiots

I can. The press did their job well jumping on the back of a world recession using anger at that to sell a lie.

What I can’t understand is why people are still clinging to the BS and holding onto gaslighting things that could have happened anyway. Such as the vaccine rollout, blue passports and crowns on pint glasses.

 

[Grendel]

I think I was thinking better of people than that!! Most on here are as bright and many are far brighter than me. The majority of whom voted to leave. Idiots was probably harsh but it still surprises me

Perhaps Sir Starmer should put in his manifesto to return into the EU fold as soon as possible?

Vote winner?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Perhaps Sir Starmer should put in his manifesto to return into the EU fold as soon as possible?

Vote winner?

Unlikely I would think and not quite the point

 

[PVA]

So you’re saying people understood it was a stupid idea but voted leave anyway to teach those that said it was stupid a lesson?

You may jest but I do know someone who voted Leave for this exact reason.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I think I was thinking better of people than that!! Most on here are as bright and many are far brighter than me. The majority of whom voted to leave. Idiots was probably harsh but it still surprises me

Most don’t/didn’t want to be a part of the political institution the EU had become, one which continued to get ever closer. We signed up to be part of a trading bloc and ended up being involved in something very different.

You can blame the politicians and the EU as an institution as much as the public, for taking it down a road that a lot of people, rightly or wrongly, didn’t want and never had been allowed a vote on. Many other countries in the EU have had periods where they didn’t want what it was becoming either (check various treaty referendum results which were ignored/revisited). Appreciate since brexit, covid and the war views supporting the EU may have strengthened though

Anyway the debate has been done to death. The two sides never really understand the others position and don’t think that will ever change

 

[skybluetony176]

You may jest but I do know someone who voted Leave for this exact reason.

I think we all know at least one “We’ve” had enough of experts” types.

 

[skybluetony176]

Most don’t/didn’t want to be a part of the political institution the EU had become, one which continued to get ever closer. We signed up to be part of a trading bloc and ended up being involved in something very different.

You can blame the politicians and the EU as an institution as much as the public, for taking it down a road that a lot of people, rightly or wrongly, didn’t want and never had been allowed a vote on. Many other countries in the EU have had periods where they didn’t want what it was becoming either (check various treaty referendum results which were ignored/revisited). Appreciate since brexit, covid and the war views supporting the EU may have strengthened though

Anyway the debate has been done to death. The two sides never really understand the others position and don’t think that will ever change

The fact is every government since we joined won a GE based on a manifesto including closer ties with the EU. Most, including Margaret Thatchers used them exact works. It’s very disingenuous to say it morphed into something we didn’t join when we repeatedly voted in governments who not only backed the EU’s role changing had a mandate from the electorate to drive that change.

 

[Grendel]

The fact is every government since we joined won a GE based on a manifesto including closer ties with the EU. Most, including Margaret Thatchers used them exact works. It’s very disingenuous to say it morphed into something we didn’t join when we repeatedly voted in governments who not only backed the EU’s role changing had a mandate from the electorate to drive that change.

The party that won the general election had a referendum as part of its manifesto - democracy in action

 

[HuckerbyDublinWhelan]

Out of interest what did the EU become that we didn’t want to join?

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

So you’re saying people understood it was a stupid idea but voted leave anyway to teach those that said it was stupid a lesson?

You are in no position to lecture anybody on this. You've already proved on the 'working abroad' thread that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to brexit.

Debating with you on this is pointless, but Pete is a decent chap. I was just surprised he would come out with something like that.

 

[CCFCSteve]

The fact is every government since we joined won a GE based on a manifesto including closer ties with the EU. Most, including Margaret Thatchers used them exact works. It’s very disingenuous to say it morphed into something we didn’t join when we repeatedly voted in governments who not only backed the EU’s role changing had a mandate from the electorate to drive that change.

Hmmm, I understand what you’re saying but i wasn’t being disingenuous. The fact is it would be a minor voting issue for most people (until 2017). When the referendum finally came half the public voted out so were obviously not happy with what it had become. From memory I think France, Ireland, Holland and possibly one or two others rejected previous treaties which extended the EUs reach. One way or another things were fudged to override the publics views. It just never sat well with me.

However, if I’d have know we’d still be having these debates 6.5 years after the vote, been through non stop political turmoil and as a country hadnt really moved on, I’d have probably sucked it up and voted remain as it hasn’t been worth all the fallout/division. The other stuff will all sort itself out over time with pragmatic, sensible leadership…unfortunately that’s been sadly missing in recent years

Anyway, what’s done is done.

 

[skybluetony176]

Hmmm, I understand what you’re saying but i wasn’t being disingenuous. The fact is it would be a minor voting issue for most people (until 2017). When the referendum finally came half the public voted out so were obviously not happy with what it had become. From memory I think France, Ireland, Holland and possibly one or two others rejected previous treaties which extended the EUs reach. One way or another things were fudged to override the publics views. It just never sat well with me.

However, if I’d have know we’d still be having these debates 6.5 years after the vote, been through non stop political turmoil and as a country hadnt really moved on, I’d have probably sucked it up and voted remain as it hasn’t been worth all the fallout/division. The other stuff will all sort itself out over time with pragmatic, sensible leadership…unfortunately that’s been sadly missing in recent years

Anyway, what’s done is done.

You’re being disingenuous again. Half the public didn’t vote out, not even half of eligible voters did.

You’re also admitting I’m right. The EU didn’t morph into a “monster”. Maggies final manifesto even bragged about how we’d changed the EU. John Majors manifesto where he brags about signing the Maastricht treaty won him an unprecedented majority government. There’s been several treaties since we joined, all our governments shaped them treaties, bragged about it, took them to the electorate, wanted patting on the back for doing it and pat we did. Like I said, the argument it changed and we had no say in it is just another lie to add to the mountain of lies from those that promoted brexit.

 

[Grendel]

You are in no position to lecture anybody on this. You've already proved on the 'working abroad' thread that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to brexit.

Debating with you on this is pointless, but Pete is a decent chap. I was just surprised he would come out with something like that.

lol yeah -

Ask Tony “I want to work abroad for 2 weeks”

Tony “research your family history through any means possible and find a relative from Ireland or your banished from Europe”

 

[Grendel]

You’re being disingenuous again. Half the public didn’t vote out, not even half of eligible voters did.

You’re also admitting I’m right. The EU didn’t morph into a “monster”. Maggies final manifesto even bragged about how we’d changed the EU. John Majors manifesto where he brags about signing the Maastricht treaty won him an unprecedented majority government. There’s been several treaties since we joined, all our governments shaped them treaties, bragged about it, took them to the electorate, wanted patting on the back for doing it and pat we did. Like I said, the argument it changed and we had no say in it is just another lie to add to the mountain of lies from those that promoted brexit.

Every political party had Maastricht in its manifesto

 

[Grendel]

Unlikely I would think and not quite the point

Well it kind of is. Surely the red wall seats now want to return - 100 seat majority surely as those thick idiots have learned the lesson and need to return to Ursulas bosom?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Well it kind of is. Surely the red wall seats now want to return - 100 seat majority surely as those thick idiots have learned the lesson and need to return to Ursulas bosom?

Nah it’s nuanced. We’ve left a union of nations and caused ourselves financial hardship for absolutely no reason.
We are where we are so I want competent leaders to deal with these and to make good decisions now

 

[skybluetony176]

You are in no position to lecture anybody on this. You've already proved on the 'working abroad' thread that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to brexit.

Debating with you on this is pointless, but Pete is a decent chap. I was just surprised he would come out with something like that.

I said get an Irish passport and working in the EU isn’t an issue. No part of that statement is incorrect.

 

[tisza]

Nah it’s nuanced. We’ve left a union of nations and caused ourselves financial hardship for absolutely no reason.
We are where we are so I want competent leaders to deal with these and to make good decisions now

It's stretching it to call it a union of nations. It's a pragmatic coalition primarily based on economic necessity and it's popularity amongst member populations is founded on that. There's significant opposition in many member states to much of the non-economic stuff ég social policies, concentration/ movement of powers in Brussels, primacy of EU courts over national etc. The current failure of Brexit has been primarily about poor leadership - governmental in particular. You can throw in the huge disruption of COVID but basically paying the price of ideology replacing practicality. A concept that didn't have proper economic policies in place before the deed was done.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Hmmm, I understand what you’re saying but i wasn’t being disingenuous. The fact is it would be a minor voting issue for most people (until 2017). When the referendum finally came half the public voted out so were obviously not happy with what it had become. From memory I think France, Ireland, Holland and possibly one or two others rejected previous treaties which extended the EUs reach. One way or another things were fudged to override the publics views. It just never sat well with me.

However, if I’d have know we’d still be having these debates 6.5 years after the vote, been through non stop political turmoil and as a country hadnt really moved on, I’d have probably sucked it up and voted remain as it hasn’t been worth all the fallout/division. The other stuff will all sort itself out over time with pragmatic, sensible leadership…unfortunately that’s been sadly missing in recent years

Anyway, what’s done is done.

. The two sides never really understand the others position and don’t think that will ever change

I don't actually think that's true. I think there's a large portion that can be swayed either way, depending on circumstance at that particular point (you appear to be one of those - I don't mean swayed in a perjorative sense!), but the people you hear are the fundamentalist nutters.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I don't actually think that's true. I think there's a large portion that can be swayed either way, depending on circumstance at that particular point (you appear to be one of those - I don't mean swayed in a perjorative sense!), but the people you hear are the fundamentalist nutters.

I agree mate. Pre Brexit both ours and many European countries would swing from minority in support of EU to minority against it. A lot of this will depend on people’s individual circumstances, the performance of the economy etc….as well as some external persuasions as you say. My frustration was always rather than listen to approx 50% of people’s concerns, it was just plough on and force a closer union. It’s shouldn’t even be close as there are no doubt major benefits in being a member

I also honestly don’t think there would be anywhere near as much of a widespread negative view if we didn’t have the hardship caused by covid followed by the war* which has made people feel ten times worse off than any direct impact of Brexit….having said that both of which were probably brexits fault according to some

* together with the ongoing political shitshow, public services at breaking point/strikes etc

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I agree mate. Pre Brexit both ours and many European countries would swing from minority in support of EU to minority against it. A lot of this will depend on people’s individual circumstances, the performance of the economy etc….as well as some external persuasions as you say. My frustration was always rather than listen to approx 50% of people’s concerns, it was just plough on and force a closer union. It’s shouldn’t even be close as there are no doubt major benefits in being a member

I also honestly don’t think there would be anywhere near as much of a widespread negative view if we didn’t have the hardship caused by covid followed by the war* which has made people feel ten times worse off than any direct impact of Brexit….having said that both of which were probably brexits fault according to some

* together with the ongoing political shitshow

3-4% of inflation directly related to the decision to leave the eu

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I also honestly don’t think there would be anywhere near as much of a widespread negative view if we didn’t have the hardship caused by covid followed by the war* which has made people feel ten times worse off than any direct impact of Brexit….having said that both of which were probably brexits fault according to some

* together with the ongoing political shitshow

What Covid did do however was stop in its tracks any campaign against the direction we were heading - no more marches to go to! It left just Tony all on the sidelines.

 

[clint van damme]

I agree mate. Pre Brexit both ours and many European countries would swing from minority in support of EU to minority against it. A lot of this will depend on people’s individual circumstances, the performance of the economy etc….as well as some external persuasions as you say. My frustration was always rather than listen to approx 50% of people’s concerns, it was just plough on and force a closer union. It’s shouldn’t even be close as there are no doubt major benefits in being a member

I also honestly don’t think there would be anywhere near as much of a widespread negative view if we didn’t have the hardship caused by covid followed by the war* which has made people feel ten times worse off than any direct impact of Brexit….having said that both of which were probably brexits fault according to some

* together with the ongoing political shitshow, public services at breaking point/strikes etc

I'm not sure how people can keep ignoring this fact but we are the only G7 country whose economy hasn't returned to pre pandemic levels, why is that?

Are you suggesting we're the only country affected by the pandemic and the war? If not, what is your explanation for the state of our economy?

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm not sure how people can keep ignoring this fact but we are the only G7 country whose economy hasn't returned to pre pandemic levels, why is that?

Are you suggesting we're the only country affected by the pandemic and the war? If not, what is your explanation for the state of our economy?

The answer is really simple. We’re the only country in history to ever impose sanctions on ourselves. And we are world beating at it. The sanctions are so effective they’re doing more damage to our economy than the sanctions the western world has put on Russia has done to Russias economy. Yet people still want to pretend otherwise.

 

[clint van damme]

The answer is really simple. We’re the only country in history to ever impose sanctions on ourselves. And we are world beating at it. The sanctions are so effective they’re doing more damage to our economy than the sanctions the western world has put on Russia has done to Russias economy. Yet people still want to pretend otherwise.

Well it's either Brexit or the tories are absolutely shit at running the economy, (or both).

 

[Grendel]

I'm not sure how people can keep ignoring this fact but we are the only G7 country whose economy hasn't returned to pre pandemic levels, why is that?

Are you suggesting we're the only country affected by the pandemic and the war? If not, what is your explanation for the state of our economy?

Its because our slump was worse then many wasn’t it?

 

[Grendel]

The answer is really simple. We’re the only country in history to ever impose sanctions on ourselves. And we are world beating at it. The sanctions are so effective they’re doing more damage to our economy than the sanctions the western world has put on Russia has done to Russias economy. Yet people still want to pretend otherwise.

you must really think Scottish independence is madness Tony

 

[clint van damme]

Its because our slump was worse then many wasn’t it?

You don't believe that. And it might have some traction if the outlooks going forward were good, but they're not.

 

[Grendel]

You don't believe that. And it might have some traction if the outlooks going forward were good, but they're not.

I think it was I assume as we have a large service industry. if we want to get controversial if the uk had decided to carry on through the pandemic and ignored lockdown it would have the highest growth

I worked every single day through the lockdown

 

[clint van damme]

I think it was I assume as we have a large service industry. if we want to get controversial if the uk had decided to carry on through the pandemic and ignored lockdown it would have the highest growth

I worked every single day through the lockdown

That's a whole can of worms to debate, I worked right through, (Mon - Fri) apart from 3 weeks.

I honestly don't see how anyone can deny our economy is in the state we're in due to either brexit or the tories
And as brexit is now done, NI protocol aside, the tories now need to deliver.
Surely everyone should expect that from them?

 

[PVA]

Its because our slump was worse then many wasn’t it?

Hmm I wonder why our economy performed worse in 2020 than many others

I wonder if something significant happened in the UK in January 2020?