The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (17 Viewers)

[Astute]

Germany is pursuing the "schwarze Null" as policy - and succeeding. ( no new credit to finance the budget ). That is a frugal policy and has been criticised as such. Schäuble wants that as his legacy. Apart from that ... I agree that rates look like rising and that the Euro is strong because it includes the old DM in its calculation. You assume that the project collapses. I don't.

German won't let the Euro collapse. They do very well out of it. If they had their own currency it would be much stronger. So the goods they sell would be more expensive. But a lot of the countries that use the Euro would be better off with their own currency. They are tied to medium of those doing better than themselves.

 

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[martcov]

German won't let the Euro collapse. They do very well out of it. If they had their own currency it would be much stronger. So the goods they sell would be more expensive. But a lot of the countries that use the Euro would be better off with their own currency. They are tied to medium of those doing better than themselves.

The same goes for the difference between regions in Britain or states in America. There has to be a stronger unification of finance in the EU. We will always be bailing out someone - in Britain.... Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and in Germany....the Saarland or Eastern Germany. If what you say is correct, Germany will have to transfer money to the weaker states for the foreseeable future. If that is in it's interest, as you say, then why not? A cohesive Europe is in everyone's interest. Maybe that is the price to pay? For hundreds of years, war was the price to pay.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

The same goes for the difference between regions in Britain or states in America. There has to be a stronger unification of finance in the EU. We will always be bailing out someone - in Britain.... Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and in Germany....the Saarland or Eastern Germany. If what you say is correct, Germany will have to transfer money to the weaker states for the foreseeable future. If that is in it's interest, as you say, then why not? A cohesive Europe is in everyone's interest. Maybe that is the price to pay? For hundreds of years, war was the price to pay.

Correction: A Germany-dependent Europe is in Germany's interests.

 

[martcov]

Correction: A Germany-dependent Europe is in Germany's interests.

So why are people like you helping the Germans to get that? You should have voted remain if you want a more balanced Europe.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The same goes for the difference between regions in Britain or states in America. There has to be a stronger unification of finance in the EU. We will always be bailing out someone - in Britain.... Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and in Germany....the Saarland or Eastern Germany. If what you say is correct, Germany will have to transfer money to the weaker states for the foreseeable future. If that is in it's interest, as you say, then why not? A cohesive Europe is in everyone's interest. Maybe that is the price to pay? For hundreds of years, war was the price to pay.

All well & good until say...Slovakia gets the feeling it is missing out on monetary handouts. They engineer their own hardship to get a slice or start kicking off with their neighbours

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Kingokings204]

Nigel Farage Lets Rip At The BBC During His Toughest Condemnation Yet - LBC

Yes he can be right sometimes and for the BBC to suggest he had blood on his hands shows how neutral the BBC are. I think not. It's disgraceful.

It is the BBC who whips up hate and division and this article shows it.

It's this type of thing that gets me the most. We can all argue whether to vote leave or remain but then to use the leave result as something like this is showing you have lost the argument and I for one hope he gets the full apology he deserves. Farage is no saint and far from it but this is simply beyond the pale for me.

On the same level as tony Blair yesterday morning conceding migration has and is too high so we can stay in the EU but with immigration quotas but not apologizing for opening the door in 2004 under his watch. The man has no shame.

 

[Astute]

The same goes for the difference between regions in Britain or states in America. There has to be a stronger unification of finance in the EU. We will always be bailing out someone - in Britain.... Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and in Germany....the Saarland or Eastern Germany. If what you say is correct, Germany will have to transfer money to the weaker states for the foreseeable future. If that is in it's interest, as you say, then why not? A cohesive Europe is in everyone's interest. Maybe that is the price to pay? For hundreds of years, war was the price to pay.

This is getting silly now.

The UK looks after the finances of the UK. Our exchange rate takes in how the UK is doing. The USA's exchange rate depends on how the USA is doing. The Euro depends on how all countries in the Euro are doing on average. Those doing the best gain massively. Those not doing well get hit again by a currency that is too strong for their economy. That is why countries like Greece will never be able to turn things around if they stay in the Euro.

It isn't just Germany who bails out those who would be better off with their own currency. We have been paying for it as well. And this is one of the main reasons they don't want us to leave.

So we should stay in the EU because of wars in the past? The Euro and the EU is causing civil unrest. That is how many wars are started. Second only to religion.

 

[martcov]

This is getting silly now.

The UK looks after the finances of the UK. Our exchange rate takes in how the UK is doing. The USA's exchange rate depends on how the USA is doing. The Euro depends on how all countries in the Euro are doing on average. Those doing the best gain massively. Those not doing well get hit again by a currency that is too strong for their economy. That is why countries like Greece will never be able to turn things around if they stay in the Euro.

It isn't just Germany who bails out those who would be better off with their own currency. We have been paying for it as well. And this is one of the main reasons they don't want us to leave.

So we should stay in the EU because of wars in the past? The Euro and the EU is causing civil unrest. That is how many wars are started. Second only to religion.

No, we should stay in the EU to avoid possible future wars. Civil unrest is being caused by poverty ( and religion ). Was caused by poverty before the EU. Will be caused by poverty if Brexit goes pear shaped. Civil discontent is being aggravated by populists and deliberate fake news - some from outside countries who hope to gain by causing divisions.

We don't know what will happen with Greece in the EU, but we can assume it gets supported. If it leaves and has a massive devaluation it will be guaranteed some time of more poverty as it will not be able to afford imported goods due to the collapse of it's currency. There is no easy solution. Greece, Spain, Portugal etc were not rich countries in our life time - or for centuries before. To blame that on the EU is an over simplification. Fits your agenda though.

 

[Astute]

No, we should stay in the EU to avoid possible future wars. Civil unrest is being caused by poverty ( and religion ). Was caused by poverty before the EU. Will be caused by poverty if Brexit goes pear shaped. Civil discontent is being aggravated by populists and deliberate fake news - some from outside countries who hope to gain by causing divisions.

We don't know what will happen with Greece in the EU, but we can assume it gets supported. If it leaves and has a massive devaluation it will be guaranteed some time of more poverty as it will not be able to afford imported goods due to the collapse of it's currency. There is no easy solution. Greece, Spain, Portugal etc were not rich countries in our life time - or for centuries before. To blame that on the EU is an over simplification. Fits your agenda though.

The EU and the Euro is causing poverty and political unrest. Does this mean it will cause a war?

I am planning to retire in the next 10 years. My plan is to then spend the rest of my days touring Europe. Why would I have an agenda? I have constantly said that I would most probably be better off personally if we stayed in the EU. I didn't vote to leave.

You live in Germany. Does anyone else sense an agenda somewhere?

Nobody has come out with a realistic reply on how to give a home to those who continue to come here when we can't house those already here. They blame the right to buy when those houses are occupied. They blame all past governments for not building more. Should they have known about open borders in the EU before it happened? Should we all pay more tax when millions can't afford to?

And shall we start on the NHS?

 

[Sick Boy]

I am planning to retire in the next 10 years. My plan is to then spend the rest of my days touring Europe.

Good luck with that.

 

[martcov]

The EU and the Euro is causing poverty and political unrest. Does this mean it will cause a war?

I am planning to retire in the next 10 years. My plan is to then spend the rest of my days touring Europe. Why would I have an agenda? I have constantly said that I would most probably be better off personally if we stayed in the EU. I didn't vote to leave.

You live in Germany. Does anyone else sense an agenda somewhere?

Nobody has come out with a realistic reply on how to give a home to those who continue to come here when we can't house those already here. They blame the right to buy when those houses are occupied. They blame all past governments for not building more. Should they have known about open borders in the EU before it happened? Should we all pay more tax when millions can't afford to?

And shall we start on the NHS?

Open borders is not quite true is it? The economy has grown along with the population. It did in the 50s and 60s in Coventry.... and there was a housing shortage then, but the world did not come to an end. The world population is also growing. People move to more prosperous areas. Unless you are for reducing prosperity and economic growth, there is little you can do to stop the population growing and putting pressure on housing and services, except build more homes and invest in services. Maybe some people would be happy with a decline of living standards to stop immigration. I don't know, but I prefer a high level of employment with economic growth. I would prefer a government that built houses and allowed the poor to enjoy the benefits of growth as opposed to a part of the government and/or media slagging off the EU for everything that is wrong with the UK and then leading the UK into an uncertain future.

As for investment, yes, a good place to start would be the NHS. Public affordable housing and recruitment of teachers would also help the situation.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

I am planning to retire in the next 10 years. My plan is to then spend the rest of my days touring Europe.

Sounds great Astute. Some on here seem to think (hope) that post-Brexit that will be impossible.

In reality you'll just turn up at the border, show your passport, sail through. No problem.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

So why are people like you helping the Germans to get that? You should have voted remain if you want a more balanced Europe.

Hahaha.
You mean vote remain and then change the corrupt EU from within?

To many Leavers the G-EU had their chance to show us they were prepared to be flexible and reform when Cameron held his crucial pre-referendum negotiations and was summarily given the two fingers by your mates.

That clinched it for me and millions of others.

We had to get out.

 

[Astute]

Good luck with that.

Exactly. Yet I am supposed to be making things up as to why we should leave.

 

[Kingokings204]

Sounds great Astute. Some on here seem to think (hope) that post-Brexit that will be impossible.

In reality you'll just turn up at the border, show your passport, sail through. No problem.

Did you know we couldn't travel before we joined the EU and the fruit didn't get picked in the fruit farms?

 

[martcov]

Did you know we couldn't travel before we joined the EU and the fruit didn't get picked in the fruit farms?

Travel wasn't as cheap and easy and there wasn't as much soft fruit production as now. So you're not far off.

 

[Astute]

Open borders is not quite true is it? The economy has grown along with the population. It did in the 50s and 60s in Coventry.... and there was a housing shortage then, but the world did not come to an end. The world population is also growing. People move to more prosperous areas. Unless you are for reducing prosperity and economic growth, there is little you can do to stop the population growing and putting pressure on housing and services, except build more homes and invest in services. Maybe some people would be happy with a decline of living standards to stop immigration. I don't know, but I prefer a high level of employment with economic growth. I would prefer a government that built houses and allowed the poor to enjoy the benefits of growth as opposed to a part of the government and/or media slagging off the EU for everything that is wrong with the UK and then leading the UK into an uncertain future.

As for investment, yes, a good place to start would be the NHS. Public affordable housing and recruitment of teachers would also help the situation.

Are you saying that if you have an EU passport you can't come to the UK?

So where is the money going to come from to build the millions of state funded houses that are needed already? Or the hospitals needed? It won't be coming from the fairy tree. So it will have to come through taxation. But over 50% already take out of the system more than they put in. Raise taxes and it becomes more. Yes we will need even more teachers. So we need to raise even more. But that means we would also need more schools and extend present ones. No problem. All we have to do is raise taxes even more.

I was in Kenilworth for the weekend. Shit roads there and back. We now need more roads as well as widening ones we already have. No problem. Just raise taxes.

I might as well just hand my wages over.

 

[Astute]

Travel wasn't as cheap and easy and there wasn't as much soft fruit production as now. So you're not far off.

So holidays are cheaper all over the world because we drifted into the EU? They became cheaper because of package holidays. This started before the EU.

I would be happy to pay more for fruit if it meant a proper wage was paid. But all savings are made to make the supermarkets more profitable.

 

[Sick Boy]

@Astute Sadly chances are that you will only be allowed within the EU for a number of set days out of the 365.

 

[martcov]

Are you saying that if you have an EU passport you can't come to the UK?

So where is the money going to come from to build the millions of state funded houses that are needed already? Or the hospitals needed? It won't be coming from the fairy tree. So it will have to come through taxation. But over 50% already take out of the system more than they put in. Raise taxes and it becomes more. Yes we will need even more teachers. So we need to raise even more. But that means we would also need more schools and extend present ones. No problem. All we have to do is raise taxes even more.

I was in Kenilworth for the weekend. Shit roads there and back. We now need more roads as well as widening ones we already have. No problem. Just raise taxes.

I might as well just hand my wages over.

There is a difference between coming to the UK and staying in the U.K. without a job.

The money can come from the same source as the bribe to the DUP. What makes you think that the only source of government income is the average working man? I suspect that, as here in Germany, the average working man or small business is the easiest way of raising taxes - but not the only way. Plus, if the population is growing - presumably because of people coming to work - then the tax revenue will also be increasing. I suspect, that as long as the Tories are in power, we will be told that there is no money tree - although there obviously is one. Should immigration, and therefore productivity, decline, then tax revenue may fall and roads may be further neglected.

 

[martcov]

So holidays are cheaper all over the world because we drifted into the EU? They became cheaper because of package holidays. This started before the EU.

I would be happy to pay more for fruit if it meant a proper wage was paid. But all savings are made to make the supermarkets more profitable.

Flights - not package holidays- also became cheaper because of more competition in Europe through "open skys" and EU liberalisation policies. When was the last time you went on a package holiday? I went on one in the 80s, now I book my flight and hotel online.

 

[chiefdave]

Nobody has come out with a realistic reply on how to give a home to those who continue to come here when we can't house those already here.

We already have the right to control immigration form the EU we just choose not to enforce it. So the first step would be to enforce that and only allow those who are economically active (ie have jobs).

Then you move on to the more general problem of housing availability. That's down to developers sitting on land and not building, social housing being sold off and not replaced and everything being converted into student flats as the build is cheaper (due to lower standards) meaning a quicker ROI.

 

[Astute]

Flights - not package holidays- also became cheaper because of more competition in Europe through "open skys" and EU liberalisation policies. When was the last time you went on a package holiday? I went on one in the 80s, now I book my flight and hotel online.

So how are they cheaper all over the world if it was just because of the EU?

 

[Kingokings204]

So how are they cheaper all over the world if it was just because of the EU?

You can get return tickets to Australia for £500 these days. Thank god Australia joined the EU.

 

[Astute]

There is a difference between coming to the UK and staying in the U.K. without a job.

The money can come from the same source as the bribe to the DUP. What makes you think that the only source of government income is the average working man? I suspect that, as here in Germany, the average working man or small business is the easiest way of raising taxes - but not the only way. Plus, if the population is growing - presumably because of people coming to work - then the tax revenue will also be increasing. I suspect, that as long as the Tories are in power, we will be told that there is no money tree - although there obviously is one. Should immigration, and therefore productivity, decline, then tax revenue may fall and roads may be further neglected.

1, Job or no job they still need somewhere to live.

2, The amount that someone pays in tax doesn't pay to have a house built, to put kids through school, build schools, build hospitals and all the rest. Our country is getting further into debt even though we have been going through many years of austerity. There isn't a magic money tree. And it isn't just down to the Tories.

We need more young people to pay for the many more pensioners we will be getting. But we can't cope now. Infrastructure before the size of a large town/small city comes in every year or it will just get worse.

 

[Astute]

We already have the right to control immigration form the EU we just choose not to enforce it. So the first step would be to enforce that and only allow those who are economically active (ie have jobs).

Then you move on to the more general problem of housing availability. That's down to developers sitting on land and not building, social housing being sold off and not replaced and everything being converted into student flats as the build is cheaper (due to lower standards) meaning a quicker ROI.

How can we stop it with the present rules? We can't. The EU is all about freedom of movement. That is what the main problem is. And the EU wouldn't let Cameron bring in rules to stop it. Or have you forgotten what Cameron said before the Brexit vote for the EU to say that there wasn't an agreement and that there wouldn't be one in the future?

Social housing sold is lived in. So no spare houses lost there.

No student accommodation allowed? Getting desperate now.

I agree with the land banks not being built on. But that wouldn't give us the millions of houses needed to catch up with what is needed.

 

[martcov]

1, Job or no job they still need somewhere to live.

2, The amount that someone pays in tax doesn't pay to have a house built, to put kids through school, build schools, build hospitals and all the rest. Our country is getting further into debt even though we have been going through many years of austerity. There isn't a magic money tree. And it isn't just down to the Tories.

We need more young people to pay for the many more pensioners we will be getting. But we can't cope now. Infrastructure before the size of a large town/small city comes in every year or it will just get worse.

Yes, the baby boomers are retiring. The percentage of pensioners is growing. Who is going to be working and paying National insurance? If loads of kids are born now, they won't be working for the next 20 years. I'll be 82 by then ( admittedly in Germany - but Germany has the same problem ). How does the country support and care for my generation in the meantime? We - my generation- are stopping working shortly. We need immigration whether we like it or not. I would prefer EU immigration because we have the same rights in the EU as they do and come from a similar cultural background. Having said that, there is a limit to European migration as, hopefully, EU countries should be getting wealthier, and some of them also have aging populations themselves- they will also need younger people of working age.

There is a magic money tree or how do you explain companies and individuals stashing money in off-shore tax havens? Plenty of money to stash, but not for infrastructure or hospitals. Raise the minimum wage and employ more tax inspectors- that would increase revenue. End austerity and go back to an improved form of Keynsism including an infrastructure programm.... But wait..... we have to deal with Brexit which requires a divorce payment, loss of various agencies, loss of jobs in the financial capital of London, loss of jobs through uncertainty, rising inflation, more and more civil servants to work in civil servant areas that were covered by EU bureaucrats and so on... Yes, on second thoughts, you're right we won't be able to cope with the increase in pensioners - with or without immigration.

 

[Astute]

Yes, the baby boomers are retiring. The percentage of pensioners is growing. Who is going to be working and paying National insurance? If loads of kids are born now, they won't be working for the next 20 years. I'll be 82 by then ( admittedly in Germany - but Germany has the same problem ). How does the country support and care for my generation in the meantime? We - my generation- are stopping working shortly. We need immigration whether we like it or not. I would prefer EU immigration because we have the same rights in the EU as they do and come from a similar cultural background. Having said that, there is a limit to European migration as, hopefully, EU countries should be getting wealthier, and some of them also have aging populations themselves- they will also need younger people of working age.

There is a magic money tree or how do you explain companies and individuals stashing money in off-shore tax havens? Plenty of money to stash, but not for infrastructure or hospitals. Raise the minimum wage and employ more tax inspectors- that would increase revenue. End austerity and go back to an improved form of Keynsism including an infrastructure programm.... But wait..... we have to deal with Brexit which requires a divorce payment, loss of various agencies, loss of jobs in the financial capital of London, loss of jobs through uncertainty, rising inflation, more and more civil servants to work in civil servant areas that were covered by EU bureaucrats and so on... Yes, on second thoughts, you're right we won't be able to cope with the increase in pensioners - with or without immigration.

Brexit will be as easy or hard as those running the EU want it to be.

So do you think it is good that a 6 figure amount of people come to live here when we can't house those already here?

 

[Grendel]

Truly extraordinary times - Dennis Skinner the poster boy of real socialism is abused and called a scab for doing what all good socialists do - vote to get out of the EU - while Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are revered for acting like true Tories and voting against the government.

Meanwhile the increasingly insane (but very well paid) Len Mcluskey believes he is Ghandi

 

[martcov]

Brexit will be as easy or hard as those running the EU want it to be.

So do you think it is good that a 6 figure amount of people come to live here when we can't house those already here?

I think it is good that we have low unemployment- although apparently foreigners have taken British workers jobs - and that in some regions wages are rising faster than house prices.

 

[Astute]

I think it is good that we have low unemployment- although apparently foreigners have taken British workers jobs - and that in some regions wages are rising faster than house prices.

How about answering the question asked for once?

Who has said about your 'apparently' comment?

Yes wages have risen quicker than house prices in a few areas recently...but not the vast majority. But what difference does it make when it still doesn't make buying a home affordable and still doesn't get the millions of houses built that is needed just to catch up with who is already living here?

 

[Sick Boy]

Truly extraordinary times - Dennis Skinner the poster boy of real socialism is abused and called a scab for doing what all good socialists do - vote to get out of the EU - while Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are revered for acting like true Tories and voting against the government.

Meanwhile the increasingly insane (but very well paid) Len Mcluskey believes he is Ghandi

Who has called him a scab?

Just seen the ever reliable Express mentioned it. Surprised you now consider yourself to be a socialist by the way.

 

[chiefdave]

How can we stop it with the present rules? We can't. The EU is all about freedom of movement. That is what the main problem is. And the EU wouldn't let Cameron bring in rules to stop it. Or have you forgotten what Cameron said before the Brexit vote for the EU to say that there wasn't an agreement and that there wouldn't be one in the future?

That doesn't make sense? The present rules do prevent it but he UK government doesn't, or can't, enforce the rules. That being the case it doesn't matter what the rules are changed to.

EU Directive 2004/38/EC (which only the UK and Ireland opted out of) states EU citizens can only stay for 3 months (i.e. a holiday).

Any longer than that and both they and their family members must show they have sufficient resources and health insurance so they are not a burden on the host member state.

A member state can expel Union citizens on grounds of public policy, public security or public health.

How much stricter do you want it to be post Brexit and how do you think it will be enforced?

Social housing sold is lived in. So no spare houses lost there.

Where are you getting 100% occupancy from? The Department for Communities and Local Government / ONS figures show a steady rise in empty properties from 800K in 1996 to 1.1m in 2005 to 1.4m in 2014 (the last year the data has been released for). Only 1 in 10 social homes sold under right to buy is replaced, the number of new builds has dropped 97% since the conservatives came in to power.

At the same time there has been a 60% rise in people living in temporary accommodation, including 120,540 children and an increase in homelessness of 134%

Traditionally a change in personal circumstances has been the top cause of homelessness but it has now become in-affordability of private rentals following the end of a tenancy agreement.

No doubt related to that fact that 40% of social housing sold under right to buy ends up on the private rental market at up to seven time the previously paid rent.

No student accommodation allowed? Getting desperate now.

I didn't say no student accommodation. I said it is a cheap and easy route for developers.

The builds are lower quality therefore cheaper. The rooms are smaller and other facilities shared meaning they can pack more people in and therefore generate more rent.

Build on the cheap, cash in and who cares if its falling apart in 25 years and needs replacing.

 

[martcov]

How about answering the question asked for once?

Who has said about your 'apparently' comment?

Yes wages have risen quicker than house prices in a few areas recently...but not the vast majority. But what difference does it make when it still doesn't make buying a home affordable and still doesn't get the millions of houses built that is needed just to catch up with who is already living here?

The question was loaded. The answer is that the economy is booming- despite inflation and the population is growing. If that means there is a short term housing shortage, it is still a better situation than having high unemployment and cheap housing. ( which may come after Brexit).

 

[Astute]

The question was loaded. The answer is that the economy is booming- despite inflation and the population is growing. If that means there is a short term housing shortage, it is still a better situation than having high unemployment and cheap housing. ( which may come after Brexit).

So if we stopped people from coming here to live until we could give everyone a home we would suddenly have high unemployment?