Astute
Well-Known Member
Because most of us are not ignoring what is going on hoping it will go away.
This seems to be a pro EU thing. Shout it from the rooftops if you can make it look good. Ignore it or say it doesn't matter if it is bad.
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
This seems to be a pro EU thing. Shout it from the rooftops if you can make it look good. Ignore it or say it doesn't matter if it is bad.
Astute
Well-Known Member
The Catalan vote was legal. But those didn't want it to happen so said it was illegal. Then the unthinkable happened.
So are you saying that it would have been a 100% vote to become independent?
Astute
Well-Known Member
52/48 is a majority. It's democracy. Get over it.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
What on earth are you going on about now?
The Budesrepublik has states which are rich and states that are poor. All under the same currency. They survive by transferring money from the rich to the poor states. Scotland has poor regions and as a whole is being subsidised by England. All under the same currency. The United States has rich and poor states all under the same currency. It is not the best case when some states are poorer than others and have to have support, but there were always poorer and richer states in Europe. Now they are under the Euro and there will have to be support and there will doubtless be transfers of wealth.
The alternative is to leave them poor as they constantly devalue their currency - which was always the case for Greece and which kept most of them poor. Good for holidaymakers though...
Good, so you now agree that Juncker won his election by European governments more convincingly than your narrow referendum "victory"?
How did you determine the legality of the Catalonian vote? There were observers there - my brother was one - but the election itself was not legal according to the King and government of Spain. I believe them because you cannot have a referendum without involving both parties. Even ours was allowed because there was a provision for it in the EU rules. Which provision in the Spanish constitution allowed Catalonia to have a referendum without the consent of the King and the Spanish parliament? It would certainly be a condition that the vote was more than 60%. A small majority wouldn't give a conclusive answer as there will always be almost daily small fluctuations of opinion based on current affairs. Spain and Catalonia would not be stupid enough to base their futures on, say, an advisory referendum with a 52:48 majority either way. Only total tossers would allow that.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Again, juncker didn't win an election.
Also you are comparing a vote of 26-2 for juncker by member states with a British election referendum where 34 million people took part. Slightly different wouldn't you say?
Astute
Well-Known Member
Something you don't have an answer for. So you pretend to be thick.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Try being serious about Greece then.
Greece used to be a country of rich and poor people. Now after joining the EU and having the same currency tied to how Germany is doing it has changed. There are hardly any rich people left. The vast majority are either poor or destitute. But I will say one thing. The vast majority are still lovely people. But they are realistic. They can't afford to leave the EU. But they also know nothing will change if they stay in.
I was talking to someone from Romania who is working in the hotel. It is his first and last season there. To him the money wasn't bad. But the price of living for him is astronomical. He has been offered a job over here. He will be living in Cambridge and working on a farm. He knows it won't be easy. But it will be much easier than he has it now. He is working up to 16 hours a day 7 days a week.
We went out for a meal a couple of days ago. The wife was surprised to see the waitress. She had done their nails earlier in the day. She has a family with two young kids. But she can't afford to spend time at home with her family. And they still rely on tips to get by.
Then you say good for holidaymakers. Would you like to tell me in which way?
Astute
Well-Known Member
Did you vote for him? Did I vote for him? Do you know anyone who voted for him?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The vote was not legal and I've already said that the majority of those wishing to remain part of Spain would have been unlikely to go out and vote.
Astute
Well-Known Member
The Scottish had the vote. Leave or stay. There was not two parties as you try to make out.
The Catalonians wanted a vote. Leave or stay. But the Spanish know it would have been a landslide vote to leave. Catalonians have never seen themselves as Spanish. They are Catalonians. They have a different language. They have different traditions.
Are you now calling leave voters total tossers for wanting to leave your EU?
Astute
Well-Known Member
So why was it illegal other than the Spanish wanting it.not to happen?
What was illegal was the way they were treated by the police. If it was an illegal vote they would not have to had used illegal approaches to stop the vote. If it was illegal the result wouldn't have stood. That would have been much better than the police attacking people.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
I think that's right. If it was illegal referendum then just let them take it and say well it wasn't legal. Who could of argued?
Surely better than hitting women like how we saw. Those videos were shocking.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Those that will defend anything that happens in the EU would argue. Just like what is happening now. And as for saying that those who want to stay as a part of Spain wouldn't vote.... why did they risk getting attacked by the police to vote to stay then?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Presumably if Brexit proves to a disaster you would back London becoming independent if it so wished? It would not require consultation or approval from the rest of the country and could just do what it wanted?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Police brurality should never be tolerated. It has nothing to do with EU though so it has nothing to do with the debate.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
I think the problem was that the EU didn't condem hitting women and actually justified it but saying the referendum was illegal.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Yeah London. A place with a different language and different customs.
And you wonder why people have a problem taking you seriously.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
So you now support them getting involved in domestic politics. Would a referendum by London without approval in parliament or by the country be legal?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It's still the same principal. If Northern Ireland had a vote and decided to do the same, would this also not need to be approved by the rest of the country?
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
No of course not. I'm not saying the Catalonia referendum was legal at all. I'm saying either stay out of it all together or get involved. Seems because the Spanish police were doing whatever needed to stop the vote which clearly the EU don't want Catalonia to separate they were quite happily brushing it under the carpet.
The irony is of course now independence in Catalonia is more likely than ever due to this monstrosity and aren't they declaring independence on Monday I read?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I agree it's more likely. Aren't the people wanting independent pro-EU anyway?
Astute
Well-Known Member
Spain are a big part of the EU. The EU are supposed to want what is best for the people of the EU. They like to donate our money to those in need.
So why don't they even mention anything? It can't have anything to do with Catalonia being one of the most financially strong places in the EU and that it keeps the rest of Spain afloat can it?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
They are not eurosceptics and would want to stay in the EU. It is the EU that has supposedly told them they wouldn't automatically remain part of it.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Why are we supposed to want one thing for us and then pick and choose the rest?
It was absolutely disgusting what happened in Catalonia. Sending in the police to batter their own people. It has no place in a modern society. Those in charge of Spain should be held responsible for what has happened. Just like what happens when other countries outside the EU does the same.
The member states elected representatives represent 500 million people, so 17 million leavers are in relation a very small minority.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Who would hold them to account? Who holds non EU countries to account?
Astute
Well-Known Member
So why is the EU happy to let Spain get away with it? They should at least call a meeting instead of saying that it has nothing to do with them.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Have you not heard of things like embargoes?
Astute
Well-Known Member
But the whole of Spain is much bigger. And the small Catalonia district has more than a quarter of the wealth of Spain.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
If one was put on Spain it would be put on us as well. Why should ordinary people like you or I suffer (if there was no EU and we were Spanish) due to actions of a government?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Same as London though, and there are probably people who want it to be independent!
Astute
Well-Known Member
So our government has now been sending out our police to attack our own people?