The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (13 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

The terms changed were agreed by our elected government, that’s democracy. We always had the veto option which our democratically elected government didn’t use. That’s democracy. A lot happened in those forty years including living standards rising, expendable income rising etc. Things improved immeasurably in the U.K. as EU members. People seem to ignore that.

People also seem to ignore that some countries outside of the EU benefited in all those same ways to a greater or lesser extent so that really isn't a valid argument. Some individual trades have been somewhat sacrificed...with a somewhat callous approach for those in them.
You are right about the democratic process at work with elected government representing us in the EU. But over time people have obviously become disenchanted with the process of the EU.

For me it is a little like big business versus a sole trader. Often the former requires endless phonecalls & explanations & an extended time period only to give up at some point along the way. In the latter case ypu talk to the guy & reach a hopefully mutually beneficial arrangement quickly.

The bigger it gets the tougher it gets for the average member of the public to feel part of it or empowered to get what they want

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[skybluetony176]

But what? We ARE exploring effective, mutually beneficial ways of trading with the EU already - that forms part of the exiting agreement doesn't it?

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We’re exploring trade with the EU except the possibility of joining or remaining the trading bloc known as the single market. The government has been clear on that. So we won’t explore a trading bloc on our doorstep who also happens to be one of our biggest trading partners but we’ll explore joining one on the opposite side of the world who we don’t even do the same trade with as we do with one member of the trading bloc on our doorstep. Where’s the sense in that. If we explore the possibility of membership of the single market and it proves to be more beneficial to the country to be in than out shouldn’t we be in? Or is it out means out at any cost so don’t explore every opportunity?

 

[Sumo the Micky Quinn]

A good chunk of the problems on the Spanish South coast are caused by Algerians or Moroccans too. Same In the Canary Islands.

What has that got to do with the EU?

Yes What has this got to do with the EU?

There are many African's, including Moroccan's & Algerian's here in the Canary Islands. The Majority are here on visas.
While they are in Spain on Visa, they are NOT allowed free movement through Europe.
My Wife's Boss is Moroccan, he has lived here in Fuerteventura, Canary Islands at the very least 20 years, he has an ex girlfriend and 'His' child living in Manchester. He has to apply for a UK "Holiday" sort stay visa to visit them when it's the child's birthday.

Africans or any other non European's causing 'serious problems' whilst on there visa are Deported. The Police here love reporting this kind of information.
Great news to the Spanish Police for the "Typical British Lager Lout" when the UK leaves.

 

[martcov]

Ah...back over that old ground. Messages/lies from both camps might well have confused the issues for some. Thought we had all agreed that

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If Farage said Norway a hundred times, and then his fan club leavers got a cliff edge having voted for a Norway solution, then they should be hopping mad at Farage. Hope they are.

 

[Ashdown]

Actually no. Several have said that I don’t have the “arrogance”. Funny that. Pretending that we are getting our sovereignty back and that we are a proud nation because we have blue passports is smug arrogance and I definitely don’t belong to that club.

I thought you were getting a German one anyway ?!

 

[SkyblueBazza]

We’re exploring trade with the EU except the possibility of joining or remaining the trading bloc known as the single market. The government has been clear on that. So we won’t explore a trading bloc on our doorstep who also happens to be one of our biggest trading partners but we’ll explore joining one on the opposite side of the world who we don’t even do the same trade with as we do with one member of the trading bloc on our doorstep. Where’s the sense in that. If we explore the possibility of membership of the single market and it proves to be more beneficial to the country to be in than out shouldn’t we be in? Or is it out means out at any cost so don’t explore every opportunity?

The nation has decided that the pre-conditions (many of which were not apparent when originally voted to join) attached to being a part of the single trade market you describe - isn't worth it.

So we are exploring new ways to work with it & beyond it...all seems simple to me. We might, as a nation, end up worse off (your preferred vision I am thinking) or better off. We have to wait & see.

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[clint van damme]

We might, as a nation, end up worse off (your preferred vision I am thinking) or better off. We have to wait & see.

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why make a stupid snide comment like that?
I'm convinced we'll be worse off, I don't want that outcome and hope I'm wrong. I don't think anyone on here who thinks the leave vote was wrong wants to see us slip into recession but their interpretation of the evidence is that we will struggle post Brexit.
If Tony wanted that outcome I don't think he'd be arguing so passionately for a reversal of the referendum outcome. Something I disagree with him on.

 

[martcov]

I thought you were getting a German one anyway ?!

Still waiting for my certificates...

 

[SkyblueBazza]

why make a stupid snide comment like that?
I'm convinced we'll be worse off, I don't want that outcome and hope I'm wrong. I don't think anyone on here who thinks the leave vote was wrong wants to see us slip into recession but their interpretation of the evidence is that we will struggle post Brexit.
If Tony wanted that outcome I don't think he'd be arguing so passionately for a reversal of the referendum outcome. Something I disagree with him on.

Nothing stupid or snide...& you confirmed it was spot on too! I suppose the word 'chosen' could be substituted for 'preferred' - as for the rest of the sentiment in the main I agree - but longer term I tend to believe(/hope) we have sufficient talent in this country to turn it around & we will in fact be at least as well off overall.

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[martcov]

Nothing stupid or snide...& you confirmed it was spot on too! I suppose the word 'chosen' could be substituted for 'preferred' - as for the rest of the sentiment in the main I agree - but longer term I tend to believe(/hope) we have sufficient talent in this country to turn it around & we will in fact be at least as well off overall.

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Turn the country round? We were doing well GDP wise and economically before Brexit. The problem was not the economy, but the disparity between those doing well and those just about managing. Will that change in a right wing Brexit Britain?

 

[clint van damme]

Nothing stupid or snide...& you confirmed it was spot on too! I suppose the word 'chosen' could be substituted for 'preferred' - as for the rest of the sentiment in the main I agree - but longer term I tend to believe(/hope) we have sufficient talent in this country to turn it around & we will in fact be at least as well off overall.

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I've confirmed nothing. Being convinced isn't the same as wanting you're own predicted outcome.
I'm convinced we'll lose to Stoke tomorrow but sincerely hope I'm wrong.
I'm sure you're right, longer term we'll turn it round, but sufficiently to have made it all worth it?

 

[skybluetony176]

The nation has decided that the pre-conditions (many of which were not apparent when originally voted to join) attached to being a part of the single trade market you describe - isn't worth it.

So we are exploring new ways to work with it & beyond it...all seems simple to me. We might, as a nation, end up worse off (your preferred vision I am thinking) or better off. We have to wait & see.

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My preferred vision? It’s what I anticipate, it’s not preferred. Pretty stupid thing to say.

 

[skybluetony176]

why make a stupid snide comment like that?
I'm convinced we'll be worse off, I don't want that outcome and hope I'm wrong. I don't think anyone on here who thinks the leave vote was wrong wants to see us slip into recession but their interpretation of the evidence is that we will struggle post Brexit.
If Tony wanted that outcome I don't think he'd be arguing so passionately for a reversal of the referendum outcome. Something I disagree with him on.

Not a complete reversal. I accept that we must leave the EU as that was the result, what I don’t accept is that it has to be on the terms that the government is intent on pursuing. Something akin to Norway is what I would like to see, we would be out the EU as per the choice of the referendum but still part of the trading bloc that serves us well.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Turn the country round? We were doing well GDP wise and economically before Brexit. The problem was not the economy, but the disparity between those doing well and those just about managing. Will that change in a right wing Brexit Britain?

By 'it' I meant the doom & gloom perceived by you & your sympathisers. Nothing more

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[SkyblueBazza]

I've confirmed nothing. Being convinced isn't the same as wanting you're own predicted outcome.
I'm convinced we'll lose to Stoke tomorrow but sincerely hope I'm wrong.
I'm sure you're right, longer term we'll turn it round, but sufficiently to have made it all worth it?

You are convinced...so it is your chosen/preferred/expected/whatever vision!

And yes I expect us to lose to Stoke too...but would prefer not to.

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[SkyblueBazza]

My preferred vision? It’s what I anticipate, it’s not preferred. Pretty stupid thing to say.

Well my comment was pretty stupid in your view...your response to it is pretty stupid in mine because I think you've missed something in its sentiment

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[martcov]

By 'it' I meant the doom & gloom perceived by you & your sympathisers. Nothing more

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I was pointing out that despite the doom and gloom of the EUSSR as put out incorrectly by leavers, we were actually doing very well.

 

[skybluetony176]

This ain’t going to help businesses manage their cash flow

Firms may face upfront VAT after Brexit

 

[Ashdown]

NHS winter crisis: A&E patient wait joint-worst on record

What this country really needs is to keep taking another 250,000 people every year for the foreseeable future, because things are going just dandy for the present inhabitants !

 

[chiefdave]

Farage warming to second EU referendum

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Farage warming to second EU referendum

Amazingly, I find myself agreeing with some of those quotes.

 

[clint van damme]

Farage warming to second EU referendum

This puts me in a predicament.
I voted remain originally but said I would vote leave or abstain from a 2nd referendum because I didn't think it was right but now he's calling for one it alters the dynamic slightly.

Wonder what his motivation is? Whatever it is it will be to do with something that benefits him and no one else. He couldn't give a fuck about sovereignty, the future of the country or anything else only himself. He's a money grabbing opportunist, something that can ne levelled at most politicians but he's particularly greedy, narcissistic example.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Wonder what his motivation is?

Well if he's confident leave would win he's right, it would indeed kill off all debate about whether to join or re-join, whatever happens once / if we leave.

Without a second, he's also right that there'll always be a call to stay in / rejoin, especially if the economy goes badly once leaving.

It's the same as calling a snap election to solidify your power base, not without risk... but the rewards make it worthwhile chancing.

 

[clint van damme]

NHS winter crisis: A&E patient wait joint-worst on record

What this country really needs is to keep taking another 250,000 people every year for the foreseeable future, because things are going just dandy for the present inhabitants !

defund.
make it fail.
privatise.

Oldest trick in the capitalist/neo liberal book.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

defund.
make it fail.
privatise.

Oldest trick in the capitalist/neo liberal book.

I'd say I look forward to seeing how we do without the (monetary and staffing) contributions immigrants make to the state but... I'm really not.

 

[clint van damme]

Well if he's confident leave would win he's right, it would indeed kill off all debate about whether to join or re-join, whatever happens once / if we leave.

Without a second, he's also right that there'll always be a call to stay in / rejoin, especially if the economy goes badly once leaving.

It's the same as calling a snap election to solidify your power base, not without risk... but the rewards make it worthwhile chancing.

maybe he wants us in because if we're out he's lost his raison d'etre.

 

[skybluetony176]

I suspect Ferage is trying to pull a fast one here. We don’t need another leave or remain in the EU referendum. We’ve done that, we voted leave and I accept that.

What we need is a soft or hard brexit referendum. In other words something like Norway’s arrangement that Ferage once loved and Boris was selling pretty much during the leave campaign or the out means out brexit that leave seems to have morphed into which the government was never given a mandate for.

I accept the result of the referendum. I just don’t accept that the government was ever given a mandate for what terms that would be on. If we’re having a second referendum that’s what it should be on, the terms and Ferage knows this but as he’s changed his mind on loving what Norway has he has to revert back to an in out referendum on the premise that it means hard brexit. It’s a con. Don’t be fooled by it.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Nigel Farage must read this thread.

I have a feeling that his desire for a second referendum is just to massage his own ego.

 

[shmmeee]

Those saying “it’ll be shit for a bit but then we’ll bounce back stronger than ever” really don’t understand economic growth. It’s compound, if you lose growth now you have to have far more than you would have in the future to make up for it.

Let’s say the GDP is £100 and growth is set to be 10% for the next five years, GDP will be:

100, 110, 121, 133.1, 146.4

If you lose two years growth it’s:

100, 100, 100, 110, 121

To make it back in those last two years you need closer to 20% growth.

No country gets those kind of growth figures outside China when they were cooking the books. Also reducing free trade, in every single example we have, restricts growth.

So for that logic to follow we’d need to not just “be OK”, we’d need an economic miracle that requires the rewriting of all the economics textbooks.

To think that’s going to happen is like putting “buy a lottery ticket” as your financial plan.

The only half rational response to Brexit is: “yes we’ll be far far poorer, but it’s worth it because of X”. Personally I’m not sure what that X could be but I’m sure someone can tell me.

 

[shmmeee]

I'd say I look forward to seeing how we do without the (monetary and staffing) contributions immigrants make to the state but... I'm really not.

Immigration won’t go down mate. That’s the worst irony of it all. Business needs what business needs and the Tories will listen to them and Labour are pro immigration anyway.

 

[Sick Boy]

Nigel Farage must read this thread.

I have a feeling that his desire for a second referendum is just to massage his own ego.

It's nothing other than to get himself headlines as he's incapable of doing it any other way.

 

[Sick Boy]

I suspect Ferage is trying to pull a fast one here. We don’t need another leave or remain in the EU referendum. We’ve done that, we voted leave and I accept that.

What we need is a soft or hard brexit referendum. In other words something like Norway’s arrangement that Ferage once loved and Boris was selling pretty much during the leave campaign or the out means out brexit that leave seems to have morphed into which the government was never given a mandate for.

I accept the result of the referendum. I just don’t accept that the government was ever given a mandate for what terms that would be on. If we’re having a second referendum that’s what it should be on, the terms and Ferage knows this but as he’s changed his mind on loving what Norway has he has to revert back to an in out referendum on the premise that it means hard brexit. It’s a con. Don’t be fooled by it.

Have to agree. A hard Brexit will ruin the country but it is too late to reverse the decision to leave the EU. The public should be allowed a vote on 'doing a Norway' and staying in the Single Market. My generation can then take the country back in at some point in the future.

 

[martcov]

Amazingly, I find myself agreeing with some of those quotes.

Yes. He is right. People like me will not stop moaning and saying that Brexit is a con with what we now know. Hard, soft, a few years of slowing growth or maybe many years etc..

Bring it on and get a clear majority one way or the other based on at least some experience of Brexit.

Ask the EU to debate the reasons for Brexit and offer solutions to any problems they see as being as being fixable to improve the EU. Offer remain and reform. Or not.

Farage is scum and is claiming that a huge majority would back Brexit, so there is no risk to leavers that the decision will be reversed and a huge victory would show the „iron will“ of the British people. It would enhance out negotiating position. If he is wrong, and we vote for remain after all, then the problem is also solved. We save money and regain business confidence and the government can concentrate on the problems of the day e.g. the NHS.

We cannot lose.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Yes. He is right. People like me will not stop moaning and saying that Brexit is a con with what we now know...KNOW? YOUR PREDICTION OF THE FUTURE IS NOT FACT UNTIL IT HAS HAPPENED. Hard, soft, a few years of slowing growth or maybe many years etc..

Bring it on and get a clear majority one way or the other based on at least some experience THE ONLY EXPERIENCE WE HAVE SO FAR IS KNEE-JERK REACTIONS BASED UPON UNCERTAINTY...NOTHING WORSE THAN WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST WHILST FIRMLY IN THE EU SO FAR...of Brexit.

Ask the EU to debate the reasons for Brexit and offer solutions...I THINK WE HAVE TRIED THAT - IT HAS BEEN FALLING UPIN DEAF EARS...to any problems they see as being as being fixable to improve the EU. Offer remain and reform. Or not.

Farage is scum and is claiming that a huge majority would back Brexit, so there is no risk to leavers that the decision will be reversed and a huge victory would show the „iron will“ of the British people. It would enhance out negotiating position. If he is wrong, and we vote for remain after all, then the problem is also solved...IT WOULDN'T BE SOLVED - HE WOULD SIMPLY HAVE HIS PLATFORM BACK & ALL THE ATTENTION HE CLEARLY CRAVES... We save money and regain business confidence and the government can concentrate on the problems of the day e.g. the NHS.

We cannot lose...YOU ALREADY DID!

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[Macca]

I still cannot for the life of me see it happening. The referendum was a gamble that that went horribly wrong for the establishment. Leaving Europe would undo years of work and their agenda cannot succeed outside of the EU