From your upside down perspective, maybe you would think that, but seeing as you class Merkel as a Nazi I wouldn’t take too much notice of your opinions.
You are insane - I do admire your ability to type with a straight jacket on though.
From your upside down perspective, maybe you would think that, but seeing as you class Merkel as a Nazi I wouldn’t take too much notice of your opinions.
Tony supports democracy Nazi style. Madmart likes his post big suprise.
The dictat is a similar concept but rather than dominate by brutality it’s now domination through economics.
No Tony this was a referendum to leave or remain in the European Union which was a very different place to where we were in the 1970’s.
We have seen 5 treaties at political union, our influence in voting terms halved, our veto conditions watered down and a net contribution on a scale never imagined.
It was right and proper we were allowed to say if we wanted to remain in this totally different model to when we joined.
There is no “reality of Brexit” but it’s worth noting the lies as to the doomsday that would take place the minute we voted to leave have been exposed.
Tony supports democracy Nazi style. Madmart likes his post big suprise.
The dictat is a similar concept but rather than dominate by brutality it’s now domination through economics.
Got a link to the records? Genuinely interested
Genuinely not saying he's making it up. I didn't notice it whenever documents were released however, and I'd like to see it. There'd be a cracking story there, and it's all available at TNA. Could look myself but... easier if someone else points me towards itI see that that this question has been completely dodged, as usual!
Like open borders within the EU?It wasn’t me that was pushing the argument that we were conned into joining the common market.
I was just answering other people.
I wasn’t conned and have seen things evolve over 40 years. I don’t buy the „we didn’t know“ bullshit.
Our elected governments knew what they were signing up to. They got opt outs for the things they least liked.
There was no informed change in 1975. There was no informed the last time either. But many only want to concentrate on what they wanted and not the truth.Much like the last one then. Surely you would welcome an informed decision for a change.
Like open borders within the EU?
There was no informed change in 1975. There was no informed the last time either. But many only want to concentrate on what they wanted and not the truth.
I agree Mart. But you still have your say.Many cannot articulate what they exactly wanted and spew clichés.
I see that that this question has been completely dodged, as usual!
This is hardly a great secret - it’s referenced here
Enoch Powell and Tony Benn were right on Europe - it was a great deception
You can though look at the original transcript (took me half hour to find it) and then the subsequent delivery.
Also no one seems to have mentioned the other elements of deception. That in 75 the yes campaign assured voters that we had full power of veto (we hadn’t it was removed) there was no political merging in the future (5 treaties later well...) great emphasis was placed on the fact we had a very strong voting influence in the European council (it’s been more than halved) and that it would not cost anything (right) - so it turned out to be a pack of lies.
Like open borders within the EU?
This is hardly a great secret - it’s referenced here
Enoch Powell and Tony Benn were right on Europe - it was a great deception
You can though look at the original transcript (took me half hour to find it) and then the subsequent delivery.
Also no one seems to have mentioned the other elements of deception. That in 75 the yes campaign assured voters that we had full power of veto (we hadn’t it was removed) there was no political merging in the future (5 treaties later well...) great emphasis was placed on the fact we had a very strong voting influence in the European council (it’s been more than halved) and that it would not cost anything (right) - so it turned out to be a pack of lies.
The EU is not our empire.
As the population increases through other countries joining, our „weighting“ as a percentage falls. I have no problem with that and would not expect to have an unfair advantage.
Because of the increased number of countries, getting unanimous decisions becomes more difficult and therefore the veto rights are restricted to the most important things. I have no problem with that.
If you don’t understand democracy and evolving political systems maybe you should carry on with your Nazi style arguments.
Democracy is parliamentary sovereignty Mart - which the odious Ted Heath assured people was not being threatened - the ability for the uk to elect a party of their choice to make all decisions and if don’t deliver we can remove them.
Kruschev would have described the iron curtain as an evolving political system. Mugawbwe declared himself a democrat.
The people have spoken Mart - respect the majority and stop sinking to anti democratic fascist bile
Apropos anti democratic bile... what happened to the ability to say „we’ve changed our mind“?
If Brexit is not what people thought it was, then they should have at least a vote on any deal. We got into this by an advisory referendum and we should have the chance to reassess it based on what we now know.
Yeah same as those other countries were given a second choice, then a third, then a fourth till they got the right answer?
I do agree that in 40 years or so the country should reconsider if given the opportunity as only after another generation can we actually know if it’s delivered or it hasn’t.
Yeah same as those other countries were given a second choice, then a third, then a fourth till they got the right answer?
I do agree that in 40 years or so the country should reconsider if given the opportunity as only after another generation can we actually know if it’s delivered or it hasn’t.
You have said several times that we voted to remain in the EU in1975. Correct?The EU is not our empire.
As the population increases through other countries joining, our „weighting“ as a percentage falls. I have no problem with that and would not expect to have an unfair advantage.
Because of the increased number of countries, getting unanimous decisions becomes more difficult and therefore the veto rights are restricted to the most important things. I have no problem with that.
If you don’t understand democracy and evolving political systems maybe you should carry on with your Nazi style arguments.
I would. Just like I now have the desire for democracy and the will of the people to take place even though I don't think it is best for me.I expect it to happen within 25 years at the very most. If there is a clear desire to attempt to rejoin then I'm sure that you'd want democracy and the will of the people to be honoured.
I would. Just like I now have the desire for democracy and the will of the people to take place even though I don't think it is best for me.
So if you are so keen for the desire for democracy and the will of the people to take place why are you so much against it now?
You have said several times that we voted to remain in the EU in1975. Correct?
For starters it was the common market. But we will forget about that fact for now.
You mention about the lies that we were told by some on the leave side. And you give that as a reason why we shouldn't leave. But you ignore the lies that the remain side told us. But we will forget about that fact for now.
I am not old enough to remember the 1975 vote. And I wasn't fully aware of what was said. So 10 times the money minimum was spent on the remain side than leave side. You didn't like the fact that slightly more was spent on the leave side this time. The public were told massive lies. And a lot of the truth was also hidden from them. Yet you seem to be very happy with this.
So how is it OK for remain to lie to us but not leave?
I can't disagree with you. But I also can't agree.I genuinely believe it is going to be cause long-term damage to the country, when it happens I also think that resentment is going to get stronger and stronger but at least we will know who to hold to account for it.
It doesn't affect me as much as others as I had an Irish passport before my parents got me a UK one. However, I do believe that MPs should not be allowed to reverse the decision and I do believe there would be a lot of very disillusioned people if it did happen. If there is a clear desire to reverse it as exit day looms then I do think it should go to another vote, if the desire is there.
Having read up about the 1975 vote I can see that people didn't vote for what they got. The truth was hidden from them. And other things were lies. And even more things couldn't be seen. Like at that time more people were leaving the UK than coming here to live. Who would have guessed that our population would go up by millions through immigration? Who would have guessed that the common market would become the EU and cost us billions each year to be in? Who would have guessed that it would make food prices much higher?Good morning.
I have said we voted 2:1 in 1975 to stay in the then common market.
I voted knowing we were going to move closer. I knew we weren’t voting solely for a trade deal.
The lies told by leave are common knowledge and some of the worst predictions of remain have yet to happen or may never happen.
The progression of the EU is well documented and the way the EU is constituted and how it works are available on line. Most people never looked at that before these discussions after the Brexit vote happened started off. Now we are told we were lied to and everything is/ was a great secret.
Since the advent of the internet it has been much easier to read up on it. But, millions take their information from the right wing papers and politicians. It is easier to let them sum it up rather than look yourself. The propagandists make it even simpler by using terms like „EU monkeys“ ( referring to Barnier etc ), EUSSR, Nazi ( referring to German politicians and ideas ), 4th Reich etc., or suggesting „youngsters“ should go and see WW2 films to see a leading EU country as the aggressor against plucky Brits. The film „Dunkirk“ has been criticised as portraying British troops as being all white and neglecting Commonwealth troops.
Massive propaganda of the worst sort. And racist against Germans. You know whwer I am coming from as these constant Nazi slurs insult my close family here.
Ironically it was Hitler who took Germany out of the League of Nations to regain it’s sovereignty and reoccupied the Rhineland breaking the then rules. He built up the military and embarked on making his sovereign nation state great again. We all know where that led and that is why we need the EU. Working together is economically better for the whole of Europe and does away with the „plucky Brits“ idea and aggressive nation states.
And I have never said one lie is more justified than another. So you are making things up again.
BTW there is a difference between making a wrong prediction and telling a barefaced lie.
Having read up about the 1975 vote I can see that people didn't vote for what they got. The truth was hidden from them. And other things were lies. And even more things couldn't be seen. Like at that time more people were leaving the UK than coming here to live. Who would have guessed that our population would go up by millions through immigration? Who would have guessed that the common market would become the EU and cost us billions each year to be in? Who would have guessed that it would make food prices much higher?
BTW I congratulate you on being the only person who knew the wall was coming down. Look at how many people got murdered trying to get to the west. Would they have tried if they knew it was going to happen?
The wall came down because of a 'mistake' It went from people being able to visit the West if they applied to go in advance to the wall coming down in just a few hours. And all because a message was misunderstood IIRC.
What hidden agenda or desire do you have with this Empire/Empire2 crap exactly?Not according to India. They said there will be no Empire 2.0 and that Indian immigration will be in the discussions.
Any deal will be agreed with the stronger partner saying what will be discussed or not.
In the real world what I live in - yes martReally?
I did that already, but you fail to understand it or have not read itAnd your opinion is backed up by logic? Explain.
Try telling your German friends that martThe greater good being for 28 not 1.
What hidden agenda or desire do you have with this Empire/Empire2 crap exactly?
Again, just because India says Indian immigration will be in discussions doesn't mean anything other than Britain & India will talk about it. Not have an open door policy or anything.
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