The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (45 Viewers)

[Astute]

India in no 'rush' to sign a post-Brexit trade deal and will tell Britain to accept more migrants

It's time to recognise the truth – a trade deal with India means concessions on immigration

Thanks SB.

So it was bad before on the UK wanting a trade deal but won't be a problem for the EU? Can you imagine the uproar throughout the EU if they relaxed borders with India just to get a trade deal with them?

Yes it will be easier for the EU to make a deal with India withiut the UK. But the EU have admitted that it won't be easy.

 

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[Astute]

I think that it is for students and those wanting to work in the IT industry rather than anyone.

That was part of it. They also wanted to make getting visas easier.

The UK government has made it too hard for companies to bring in the specialist help they need from countries outside the EU. This needs to change. It takes at least a year presently.

 

[Astute]

they've stated quite clearly it's a deal breaker for them. That's why they've been trying to thrash out the deal with the EU for 11 years.

The whisky tariffs which have been mentioned were another major stumbling block and also something to do with food standards, I'm not sure what the detail of that is or which countries this was an issue for. I don't think the UK was one but the UK were at loggerheads with them over the whisky tariffs and the visas.

The visas are a deal breaker for many countries. It isn't just the UK.

Two countries do well with trade from the EU to India. Germany and Belgium. It will take a lot for the others to agree.

 

[Sick Boy]

That was part of it. They also wanted to make getting visas easier.

The UK government has made it too hard for companies to bring in the specialist help they need from countries outside the EU. This needs to change. It takes at least a year presently.

The student visa issue is likely to remain an issue due to people overstaying visas and people having applicatons for bogus schools that don't exist.

I agree that people should be allowed to bring in specialists from outside of the EU, however realistically the number of EU and rest of the world migrants coming into the country is unlikely to change and possibly EU migrants having a special status, which will be reciprocated for UK migrants into the EU.

May's target of getting immigration to below 100,000 was always going to backfire on her and will always be unachievable if we have a successful economy and certain skills gaps and education is not improved upon.

 

[shmmeee]

You are the most clueless person I have ever had the pleasure of interacting with (although there are some close runners up on here).

You think the EU have strong exterior borders, you think Merkel has lowered the crime rate, and you think pub music is the same as an Islamic call to prayer.

You say I've been played. I cannot actually fathom how you and some others live on the same planet as the rest of us.

Classic sign of losing an argument this. If you’ve got rebuttals use them don’t just whine that the other person is too stupid to debate you.

 

[martcov]

That was part of it. They also wanted to make getting visas easier.

The UK government has made it too hard for companies to bring in the specialist help they need from countries outside the EU. This needs to change. It takes at least a year presently.

One slogan of the right wing party in Germany was „Kinder statt Inder“. Children instead of Indians.

Gerhard Schröder did introduce a sort of green card for people like IT specialists.

 

[clint van damme]

The visas are a deal breaker for many countries. It isn't just the UK.

Two countries do well with trade from the EU to India. Germany and Belgium. It will take a lot for the others to agree.

That's right. The whisky and food stuff I mentioned was more parochial but the visa was a common stumbling block among the EU countries.
I think it's quite conceivable that the UK and the EU don't sign a deal anytime soon after Brexit.

 

[Astute]

The student visa issue is likely to remain an issue due to people overstaying visas and people having applicatons for bogus schools that don't exist.

I agree that people should be allowed to bring in specialists from outside of the EU, however realistically the number of EU and rest of the world migrants coming into the country is unlikely to change and possibly EU migrants having a special status, which will be reciprocated for UK migrants into the EU.

May's target of getting immigration to below 100,000 was always going to backfire on her and will always be unachievable if we have a successful economy and certain skills gaps and education is not improved upon.

Plans for the future will be difficult until we know what sort of deal we will get with the EU.

 

[Astute]

One slogan of the right wing party in Germany was „Kinder statt Inder“. Children instead of Indians.

Gerhard Schröder did introduce a sort of green card for people like IT specialists.

And it is now a problem throughout the EU. Right wing parties are growing. AfD have taken over 12% of the votes in Germany after only 5 years of existence. And that was after taking in people who needed help. All trade deals need to be arranged that won't help right wing parties get even more of the vote. And they use fear more than the truth.

 

[martcov]

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Why should I be incensed about the EU tightening it’s outside borders? I am all for free movement within the EU. Equal rights for all citizens of member states. An EU wide immigration policy is needed as are rules on the distribution of refugees covered by UN and Geneva convention rules.

A strong exterior border is necessary to protect the interests of member states and to apply the rules of trade deals. The difference is that the UK wants to create borders within Europe and to negotiate its own trade deals, which I think is contraproductive for all concerned. More unnecessary bureaucracy amongst other things.

Figures do get massaged as you say. As do incidents. Every time something like recently in Münster or in Canada happens people are screaming that it was Muslims. It wasn’t. Statistically right wing crimes continue to rise. The AFD don’t like the new crime figures and are claiming they are massaged. No surprise there.

Some things will be Merkel’s legacy. Farage chose Amri. Amri was in Europe before Merkel said „wir schaffe das“ and was not Syrian. Farage got it wrong. Again. I said it was flawed logic and we will see what Merkel’s legacy is after she has gone.

Breitbart etc. were set up and sponsored by extremely wealthy right wing people specificically to distort reporting in order to create a white, nationalist movement. Their reporting is simplistic and targeted. If you read their comments sections you can see who reads it and how it’s working. They are „playing“ people by making them angry and fearful of the future.

 

[Astute]

That's right. The whisky and food stuff I mentioned was more parochial but the visa was a common stumbling block among the EU countries.
I think it's quite conceivable that the UK and the EU don't sign a deal anytime soon after Brexit.

They have been trying for 11 years now. And if all countries in the EU get the veto still it won't change in another 11 years. But if and when the veto is taken away it would make deals easier to make. But it would certainly cause unrest.

This is why it will be much easier for the UK to make deals with countries like New Zealand and Australia than the EU. We need their food. They need to sell to us. But a major problem with the EU is it needs to protect the farmers. That is why so much EU money goes to landowners and farmers. And they have admitted so.

 

[Astute]

Why should I be incensed about the EU tightening it’s outside borders? I am all for free movement within the EU. Equal rights for all citizens of member states. An EU wide immigration policy is needed as are rules on the distribution of refugees covered by UN and Geneva convention rules.

A strong exterior border is necessary to protect the interests of member states and to apply the rules of trade deals. The difference is that the UK wants to create borders within Europe and to negotiate its own trade deals, which I think is contraproductive for all concerned. More unnecessary bureaucracy amongst other things.

Figures do get massaged as you say. As do incidents. Every time something like recently in Münster or in Canada happens people are screaming that it was Muslims. It wasn’t. Statistically right wing crimes continue to rise. The AFD don’t like the new crime figures and are claiming they are massaged. No surprise there.

Some things will be Merkel’s legacy. Farage chose Amri. Amri was in Europe before Merkel said „wir schaffe das“ and was not Syrian. Farage got it wrong. Again. I said it was flawed logic and we will see what Merkel’s legacy is after she has gone.

Breitbart etc. were set up and sponsored by extremely wealthy right wing people specificically to distort reporting in order to create a white, nationalist movement. Their reporting is simplistic and targeted. If you read their comments sections you can see who reads it and how it’s working. They are „playing“ people by making them angry and fearful of the future.

But a trade deal with India goes against this.

It would be much easier if they all said what they mean. But the voters wouldn't like the truth.

 

[martcov]

And it is now a problem throughout the EU. Right wing parties are growing. AfD have taken over 12% of the votes in Germany after only 5 years of existence. And that was after taking in people who needed help. All trade deals need to be arranged that won't help right wing parties get even more of the vote. And they use fear more than the truth.

Yes, but we cannot make all rules to satisfy a right wing minority. In our local elections this week AFD got 5,5% state wide and 5,9% in the city. No way should we pander to them.

But, I do agree that we should take on questions that are valid points. Such as strengthening EU borders and reforming the repatriation program for failed asylum seekers.

 

[martcov]

But a trade deal with India goes against this.

It would be much easier if they all said what they mean. But the voters wouldn't like the truth.

Strengthening borders means being able to apply trade deal immigration rules. It doesn’t mean stopping all immigration.

 

[martcov]

They have been trying for 11 years now. And if all countries in the EU get the veto still it won't change in another 11 years. But if and when the veto is taken away it would make deals easier to make. But it would certainly cause unrest.

This is why it will be much easier for the UK to make deals with countries like New Zealand and Australia than the EU. We need their food. They need to sell to us. But a major problem with the EU is it needs to protect the farmers. That is why so much EU money goes to landowners and farmers. And they have admitted so.

British farmers say they need protecting. They have a powerful lobby in the UK.

No way are we going to open the flood gates to food from the rest of the world when we leave the EU.

 

[Sick Boy]

That's right. The whisky and food stuff I mentioned was more parochial but the visa was a common stumbling block among the EU countries.
I think it's quite conceivable that the UK and the EU don't sign a deal anytime soon after Brexit.

If the government itself is unable to agree on anything then how is the country going to be agree anything with the EU? We were led to believe by that honest man, Liam Fox, that the negotiations would the easiest in history and a mere formality - Liam Fox: EU trade deal after Brexit should be 'easiest in history' to get

 

[skybluetony176]

This thread is a joke sometimes. Well quite frequently actually.

The remainers.on here were saying that it would be bad for the UK to do a deal with India as one thing that India wanted was a relaxed border. This was said to be because 1.2b people were.ready to come.here which would have been much worse than being in the EU. Yet now it is a disaster. And it is good that 1.2b people are.ready to move into the EU becaausr Europe is a big place.

And then you come out with snide remarks making out someone is racist or against certain religions.

Just like yesterday when you made your comments about me saying that prayer calls shouldn't be allowed so loud in Sweden. Of course you knew it was aimed against Muslims. And you went on about those who mentioned it blaming the EU for everything when the EU hadn5been mentioned.

I would love to be able to have a proper debate on here. Debate each part as it comes up. But all you want to do is point score and throw allegations around. The total opposite of a debate.

It’s leavers that wanted to take back control of our borders not remainers so your first point is just bollocks.

Earlsdon clearly has an issue specifically with Muslims diluting our culture. His words not mine so it’s difficult for it to be a snide comment when I’m just pointing out what he’s been very open about himself overall many posts over many months.

I didn’t make anything out about what you said on the volume of calls to prayer. Not sure where you get that from.

 

[Sick Boy]

British farmers say they need protecting. They have a powerful lobby in the UK.

No way are we going to open the flood gates to food from the rest of the world when we leave the EU.

The British will have to be more in line with other countries and base their diet more on seasonal foods.

 

[martcov]

The British will have to be more in line with other countries and base their diet more on seasonal foods.

What is amazing is the amount of chocolates and sweets in general. All made from imported cocoa and sugars. Our diet seems pretty crap actually.

 

[Astute]

Yes, but we cannot make all rules to satisfy a right wing minority. In our local elections this week AFD got 5,5% state wide and 5,9% in the city. No way should we pander to them.

But, I do agree that we should take on questions that are valid points. Such as strengthening EU borders and reforming the repatriation program for failed asylum seekers.

I agree. We need to do what is best for the majority. But we still need to keep in mind what could go wrong.

 

[Astute]

Strengthening borders means being able to apply trade deal immigration rules. It doesn’t mean stopping all immigration.

But where have I ever said stop all immigration?

But some sort of limits should be available.

 

[Astute]

British farmers say they need protecting. They have a powerful lobby in the UK.

No way are we going to open the flood gates to food from the rest of the world when we leave the EU.

So it is said that we don't grow enough or breed enough for meat. It is said we are 30% behind what we need. Protectionism is needed when you don't need anything.

If tariffs are brought in by the EU we can make deals elsewhere. And deals are already being spoken about fir when we do leave.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Classic sign of losing an argument this. If you’ve got rebuttals use them don’t just whine that the other person is too stupid to debate you.

That's exactly what he just did to me?

Jesus Christ, the bias here just doesn't stop. Can't some you just debate honestly?

By posting the article I verified my argument already, and no one could really say anything other than deluded bollocks or 'you're racist' in return.

 

[Astute]

If the government itself is unable to agree on anything then how is the country going to be agree anything with the EU? We were led to believe by that honest man, Liam Fox, that the negotiations would the easiest in history and a mere formality - Liam Fox: EU trade deal after Brexit should be 'easiest in history' to get

That article is nearly a year old. We have learned much since then.

It is like someone saying that the EU will find a deal with India much easier once we have left. It is also false news.

 

[Sick Boy]

But where have I ever said stop all immigration?

But some sort of limits should be available.

If unemployment is supposedly at an all-time low, surly it means there are jobs that need to be filled?

 

[martcov]

But where have I ever said stop all immigration?

But some sort of limits should be available.

There are limits or borders, but they are difficult to enforce- especially in the Med. We need a fixed immigration policy and a single way of dealing with the expected massive attempts to get to Europe from Africa. Africa has a young and growing population, but not the economy to support it.

There are too many countries washing their hands of the problems.

 

[Sick Boy]

That article is nearly a year old. We have learned much since then.

It is like someone saying that the EU will find a deal with India much easier once we have left. It is also false news.

It is quite worrying that less than a year ago the government was not preparing for a no deal scenario. It was yet another bizarre claim along with those such as the UK very much had the upper-hand and could call the shots.

It is interesting that you dismiss the article and make up excuses for Fox and say "we have learned much since then" - surly you should be defending the likes of Osborne as well for his predictions?

 

[Astute]

I wouldn’t be asleep on a Friday afternoon. I couldn't sleep through church bells either and there’s more chance of those waking me on a Sunday morning. Still don’t have a problem with either and still don’t see what it has to do with the EU. Other than a pattern of anti EU feeling turning into anti Islam feeling such as the out means out, I know what I voted for type Facebook pages and their new enemy. I look forward to the days when my mum gets accused of being a bomb maker again like she did in the seventies because of her Irish accent such is the direction some people seem intent on taking us, backwards. We’ve sorted the EU out let’s move onto the Muslims, next it will be lumping Indians in with Pakistanis, followed by an anti African movement followed by an anti anyone not white, followed by anyone with a non British accent. Funnily enough my mum does have a British accent and is a Protestant. Didn’t stop kids ill informed by parents asking me if she was an IRA member when I was at school though. And this is the nonsense people want to drag us back to. Funnily enough they all seemed to have voted leave as well in my experience.

And then you said this after using it to have an anti Muslim rant.

I didn’t make anything out about what you said on the volume of calls to prayer. Not sure where you get that from.

 

[wingy]

This bit made me laugh :smuggrin:

I used to work in H&S. 110db is an extreme amount.

85 Decibels (dB) - the "Action Level" where hearing protection is required. 90 dB - the OSHA, 8 hour average exposure limit. 100 dB - exposures longer than 15 minutes are not recommended. 110 dB - regular exposure of more than 1 minute risks permanent hearing loss.

No wonder I'm f**ked with racing titinus.

 

[Astute]

If unemployment is supposedly at an all-time low, surly it means there are jobs that need to be filled?

So point out where I have said anything differently.

What I have always said is that we need to be able to bring in certain skills more than anyone with a certain passport. We need to get our infrastructure up to where it should be.

There needs to be balance. And presently there is no balance.

 

[Sick Boy]

So point out where I have said anything differently.

What I have always said is that we need to be able to bring in certain skills more than anyone with a certain passport. We need to get our infrastructure up to where it should be.

There needs to be balance. And presently there is no balance.

The country requires both skilled and unskilled migration; I expect EU nationals will be able to move here still if they have a job secured before arriving. I agree that non-EU nationals should be allowed to move here more easily if they have skills that are required - however, they do appear to work in the NHS without too many issues.

 

[Astute]

There are limits or borders, but they are difficult to enforce- especially in the Med. We need a fixed immigration policy and a single way of dealing with the expected massive attempts to get to Europe from Africa. Africa has a young and growing population, but not the economy to support it.

There are too many countries washing their hands of the problems.

So we need strict controls to stop Europe getting overcrowded but do nothing to stop the UK from getting overcrowded?

England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Where does it end?

 

[Sick Boy]

England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Where does it end?

Is it?

Which Country is the World's Most Densely Populated?

Think your country is crowded? These maps reveal the truth about population density across Europe

List of countries and dependencies by population density - Wikipedia

 

[Astute]

The country requires both skilled and unskilled migration; I expect EU nationals will be able to move here still if they have a job secured before arriving. I agree that non-EU nationals should be allowed to move here more easily if they have skills that are required - however, they do appear to work in the NHS without too many issues.

Not even the NHS can bring in who they need. Numbers are totally limited as a whole. There are too many hoops to jump through.

And as I have said countless times it depends on what sort of deal we end up with. I hope that is the case though. And it is made much easier for companies to bring in who they need without it depending on where they come from.

 

[Sick Boy]

Not even the NHS can bring in who they need. Numbers are totally limited as a whole. There are too many hoops to jump through.

And as I have said countless times it depends on what sort of deal we end up with. I hope that is the case though. And it is made much easier for companies to bring in who they need without it depending on where they come from.

May's insane, self-imposed targets will make that unlikely, unfortunately.