The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (56 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

So treaties are not deals?


noun
plural noun: treaties

1. a formally concluded and ratified agreement between states.
   "the two Presidents signed a ten-year treaty of solidarity"
   synonyms: agreement, settlement, pact, deal, entente, concordat, accord, concord, protocol, compact, convention, contract, covenant, bargain, pledge;More
   

When they're multilateral ones not really no, there is no fundamental difference between the Treaty whether you're the UK or whether you're Slovakia the deal on offer is the same. "Deal" is the simplistic 'person buying a new car' thinking that has got us into this mess.

 

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[fernandopartridge]

So members of the EU are not tied to the EU?

So if we are not tied to the EU why is it so difficult to leave? And don't try blaming it on the clueless MP's, PM and all those involved.

If we were not tied to the EU why can't there be a trade deal without keeping ties?

It is amazing sometimes what some are willing to come out with to try and make someone look wrong or make themselves look right.

It isn't difficult to leave it's difficult to make a success of leaving without a proper viable plan and doing significant preparation first.

 

[Sick Boy]

I did one paragraph to make sure the details were correct. Because I know what you and others are like. One sentence wrong so the whole post is incorrect.

Yes Turkey is in the customs union but not single market. They are trying to get into the single market and eventually as a member of the EU. Are you going to try and dispute this? Why do they want to be more than just in the customs union?

There’s very very little chance of Turkey joining the EU, especially with Erdogan in charge.

 

[Astute]

When they're multilateral ones not really no, there is no fundamental difference between the Treaty whether you're the UK or whether you're Slovakia the deal on offer is the same. "Deal" is the simplistic 'person buying a new car' thinking that has got us into this mess.

So the deal is the same whoever you are but it isn't a deal?

 

[Sick Boy]

I follow a former leaver on Twitter who wrote a blog on this, called it 'simplism'. The leave campaign especially distill every Brexit issue into a simplistic decision related back to leave or not.

Do you have the link for it? cheers

 

[Sick Boy]

It isn't difficult to leave it's difficult to make a success of leaving without a proper viable plan and doing significant preparation first.

IMO, it would take a decade coupled with a lot of preparation to leave and make a success of it, and even it would be an unhill battle. There's still so many who have not accepted that British is not a world superpower.

 

[martcov]

So you agree with me Mart

Only if you twist your own words to fit my answer.

 

[Astute]

It isn't difficult to leave it's difficult to make a success of leaving without a proper viable plan and doing significant preparation first.

I haven't said differently.

But some seem to think all we need is a customs union. A customs union isn't a free trade agreement. It is to do with being in the single market. And the single market means keeping to FOM.

To make an immediate success would mean keeping in the single market. This would mean keeping FOM. Yet there are some that don't seem to understand or refuse to admit.

And I can't see the EU wanting to make an exception for us.

 

[martcov]

IMO, it would take a decade coupled with a lot of preparation to leave and make a success of it, and even it would be an unhill battle. There's still so many who have not accepted that British is not a world superpower.

Staying in, using existing rules to curb misuse of FOM and using our veto to block any integration we don’t want would have met most of the 17.4 million‘s reasons for leaving. But, not Farage’s, Bank‘s, Rees Mogg‘s etc.‘s reasons.

 

[Astute]

There’s very very little chance of Turkey joining the EU, especially with Erdogan in charge.

And again did I say differently?

So do you agree that Turkey wants and needs more than being in the customs union?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Do you have the link for it? cheers

 

[Astute]

IMO, it would take a decade coupled with a lot of preparation to leave and make a success of it, and even it would be an unhill battle. There's still so many who have not accepted that British is not a world superpower.

Which means that we need to stay in the single market. Yet you and others make out that if we have a free trade agreement we won't keep FOM.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I haven't said differently.

But some seem to think all we need is a customs union. A customs union isn't a free trade agreement. It is to do with being in the single market. And the single market means keeping to FOM.

To make an immediate success would mean keeping in the single market. This would mean keeping FOM. Yet there are some that don't seem to understand or refuse to admit.

And I can't see the EU wanting to make an exception for us.

The customs union isn't the single market but the single market has features of the customs union.

 

[Astute]

Only if you twist your own words to fit my answer.

I didn't twist your words. I quoted your exact words.

So now quoting your own words is twisting your words?

 

[Astute]

The customs union isn't the single market but the single market has features of the customs union.

So we agree.

As I said the customs union means you can freely trade items from outside the EU if kept to the rules of the customs union. But it is difficult to freely trade items that are in line with the customs union if you are not a full member of the EU or a part of the single market. Because you don't have the access to sell to EU countries like we presently do have.

 

[Sick Boy]

And again did I say differently?

So do you agree that Turkey wants and needs more than being in the customs union?

Turkey doesn't seem to have any serious appetite to join the EU at present and its human rights record is shocking and will prevent it from joining. I can't see all 27/28 countries agreeing to Turkey joining either.

 

[Sick Boy]

Which means that we need to stay in the single market. Yet you and others make out that if we have a free trade agreement we won't keep FOM.

I think you’re confusing me with the government.

 

[Astute]

Turkey doesn't seem to have any serious appetite to join the EU at present and its human rights record is shocking and will prevent it from joining. I can't see all 27/28 countries agreeing to Turkey joining either.

And yet again where did I say differently?

You have those in charge of a country and those who know what is best. The views and aims of one person doesn't mean the whole country thinks the same. Look at how many agree with May for instance.

Let's try and explain in a different way. So we join the customs union. Just like Turkey. We would then need trade agreements all over the place for different goods. This could take many years. This is what Turkey presently has. If they joined the EU or single market they would be able to trade freely. If we only kept to the customs union we would be in the same position as Turkey. We wouldn't have the trade agreements in place so we wouldn't be able to trade the goods allowed with being in the customs union.

So we would need to be in the single market minimum. This would mean keeping FOM.

Or can someone please explain where I am wrong instead of keep trying to say I am wrong?

 

[Astute]

I think you’re confusing me with the government.

No. You stated we wouldn't need to keep FOM to be able to trade freely with the EU.

I will admit I am wrong if someone can explain to me how I am wrong. But this doesn't mean saying the EU would make an exception for us because there has been no sign of it.

 

[Sick Boy]

No. You stated we wouldn't need to keep FOM to be able to trade freely with the EU.

I will admit I am wrong if someone can explain to me how I am wrong. But this doesn't mean saying the EU would make an exception for us because there has been no sign of it.

Does Canada and the EU have FoM as part of its free trade deal? The EU makes free trade deals without FoM.

 

[martcov]

Which means that we need to stay in the single market. Yet you and others make out that if we have a free trade agreement we won't keep FOM.

It’s May and Corbyn who think that.

 

[skybluetony176]

No. You stated we wouldn't need to keep FOM to be able to trade freely with the EU.

I will admit I am wrong if someone can explain to me how I am wrong. But this doesn't mean saying the EU would make an exception for us because there has been no sign of it.

Lots of countries have a free trade agreement with the EU but not FOM. What do you think Liam “it will be the easiest deal in history” Fox has been trying to get rolled forward for 3 years and failing? Then you have crown dependencies such as the Isle of Man, they have free trade access to the EU but no free movement of people. There was even a case where an Isle of Man resident landed a job in Brussels with the EU and then couldn’t take the job because he wasn’t entitled to FOM. Some French crown dependencies even have the Euro as their official currency, enjoy free trade with the EU but are not entitled to FOM.

 

[skybluetony176]

Does Canada and the EU have FoM as part of its free trade deal? The EU makes free trade deals without FoM.

European Union free trade agreements - Wikipedia

 

[Astute]

Does Canada and the EU have FoM as part of its free trade deal? The EU makes free trade deals without FoM.

How many years did that deal take?

It doesn't cover all goods.

And like I said where is it said that the EU would be happy to offer us the same? Part of what isn't allowed is services. It is big for the UK in the EU. Or how about many fresh foodstuffs. And that wasn't because the Canadian fresh foodstuff isn't up to standard either.

So like I said we can spend years making the deal to be able to trade with the EU. Which is what you have said with Canada.

 

[Astute]

Lots of countries have a free trade agreement with the EU but not FOM. What do you think Liam “it will be the easiest deal in history” Fox has been trying to get rolled forward for 3 years and failing? Then you have crown dependencies such as the Isle of Man, they have free trade access to the EU but no free movement of people. There was even a case where an Isle of Man resident landed a job in Brussels with the EU and then couldn’t take the job because he was entitled to FOM. Some French crown dependencies even have the Euro as their official currency, enjoy free trade with the EU but are not entitled to FOM.

Name them and what the agreement is. Name what is limited.

 

[Astute]

European Union free trade agreements - Wikipedia

So you have a list of trade agreements but not what they are. The devil is in the detail. But of course you won't mention the detail if you find out what it is.

Are you saying this is our way forward? As you seem to think that we don't need to have much to do with the EU to get a trade deal with them.

 

[Sick Boy]

How many years did that deal take?

It doesn't cover all goods.

And like I said where is it said that the EU would be happy to offer us the same? Part of what isn't allowed is services. It is big for the UK in the EU. Or how about many fresh foodstuffs. And that wasn't because the Canadian fresh foodstuff isn't up to standard either.

So like I said we can spend years making the deal to be able to trade with the EU. Which is what you have said with Canada.

You're better off taking this arguement up with leavers, I think leaving the EU would insane for the UK.

 

[Sick Boy]

Are you saying this is our way forward?.

Of course he isn't, but plenty of this forum have done previously, so take it up with them.

 

[Grendel]

You're better off taking this arguement up with leavers, I think leaving the EU would insane for the UK.

There’s one deal on Tony’s wiki list that is pretty much complete free trade without restrictions and the reason for the EU doing it shows why actually Germany wouldn’t allow the uk to crash out and would demand a free trade arrangement with the uk

 

[martcov]

How many years did that deal take?

It doesn't cover all goods.

And like I said where is it said that the EU would be happy to offer us the same? Part of what isn't allowed is services. It is big for the UK in the EU. Or how about many fresh foodstuffs. And that wasn't because the Canadian fresh foodstuff isn't up to standard either.

So like I said we can spend years making the deal to be able to trade with the EU. Which is what you have said with Canada.

Seems you are in agreement that membership gives us the best possible deal. Use the existing rules on FOM and block any further integration that we don’t like should keep you happy.

Basically this whole Brexit crap is damaging and, if you ignore the lies spread by leave, a total waste of time and energy.

 

[Astute]

You're better off taking this arguement up with leavers, I think leaving the EU would insane for the UK.

I'm taking it up with those who are always desperate to prove me wrong. Like here where it is now easy to get a free trade agreement with the EU supposedly. But for ages they have been saying the total opposite.

At least nobody has anything to worry about and I must be wrong with my concerns. We won't need to be in the single market if you believe what they now say. So I don't have to worry about parliament keeping us in the single market.

 

[Astute]

Of course he isn't, but plenty of this forum have done previously, so take it up with them.

I take up each lie and false information as it arises. Especially when someone comes out with it to try and show me to be wrong and it is the opposite of what they have said for ages.

 

[Sick Boy]

I'm taking it up with those who are always desperate to prove me wrong. Like here where it is now easy to get a free trade agreement with the EU supposedly. But for ages they have been saying the total opposite.

Utter nonsense, the only person who has just claimed the EU would offer the UK a deal is Grendel.

Why would you worry about parliament keeping the UK in the SM if you are all for remain and moving to France?

 

[Sick Boy]

I take up each lie and false information as it arises. Especially when someone comes out with it to try and show me to be wrong and it is the opposite of what they have said for ages.

And you accuse others of making it impossible to debate anything.

 

[Grendel]

Utter nonsense, the only person who has just claimed the EU would offer the UK a deal is Grendel.

Why would you worry about parliament keeping the UK in the SM if you are all for remain and moving to France?

Of course we’d get a free trade deal in a very short space of time once the agreement to leave was signed