Tonights Forum 07/06/13 (1 Viewer)

[stupot07]

That's absolutely and wholly true. But it has a pertinent flip side. The negativity of the financial debate with regards rent, stadium related incomes aside for a moment; the arrangement leaves SISU with a remarkably simple business plan. Match expenditure against oncomes via ticket pricing, plus other streams such as hospitality, the shop, shirt sponsorship, TV revenues and cup runs.

From whatever they can raise in this regard, the costs are subtracted; the rent, the academy, etc.

The income from the list above would be in the parish of £5 to 6m; even with last seasons crowds. Subtract the prime costs, and there should be some £4m balance. From that, they run their football club.

Fisher - holding them up now as a shining light as he has a new agenda - tells us that Yeovil went up with a third if that sum.

We haven't gone up, we haven't stayed within the confines if a simple operating plan, and we've stacked debt - year on year, right up to now.

You can't make the post you did, yet retain any confidence in SISU's ability to run our football club; as those two views would diametrically oppose one another

Problem is, most fans will expect a new owner to come on and splash the cash, they will not except being frugal, as soon as we get promoted to the championship where FFP is allowable losses expectations will rise along with debt again.

Our club is a tough gig, expectations are very high, possibly too high. Nothing wrong with ambition and aiming high but ambition and expectations are two different things.

 

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[DazzleTommyDazzle]

The most interesting bit last night was TF's statement - whilst avoiding the question from the SCG guy - that SISU had written off the £45m in their books. He then went on to explain that they would not exit CCFC now because they were "at the bottom of the business cycle".

So, what he (and presumably JS) is saying is that if they retain the club things will get financially better for them and they will exit with more money than they could now.

Really?? Really???

3 years (and does anyone honestly believe we'd really be in a new ground in 3 years?) playing away from the city. Low crowds, SISU having to fund losses (in TF's own words), FFP rules biting on our reduced and reducing turnover. Would we manage to stay in the third division? Would it be the fourth division before we came back to Coventry? How low will crowds have sunk by then? How many people will have lost the matchday habit? Don't even mention the investment in the new stadium.

If that really is your strategy Tim - beware "good money after bad".

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Problem is, most fans will expect a new owner to come on and splash the cash, they will not except being frugal, as soon as we get promoted to the championship where FFP is allowable losses expectations will rise along with debt again.

Our club is a tough gig, expectations are very high, possibly too high. Nothing wrong with ambition and aiming high but ambition and expectations are two different things.

Equally, supporters are most discerning than they are often credited for. I want an owner who either had the financial wherewithal to back the club without crippling it with debt; or operates within its own budgets. But it needs total clarity we all buy into.

The latter works on all levels. Crewe have done it for years, and the German model is now cutting it at Champions League level. We need to our own iteration of that same model.

One thing Fisher said the other evening was that football is all about winning. He's wrong. It's about being sustainable at our natural level. That's the only way we'll break this cycle

 

[stupot07]

Equally, supporters are most discerning than they are often credited for. I want an owner who either had the financial wherewithal to back the club without crippling it with debt; or operates within its own budgets. But it needs total clarity we all buy into.

The latter works on all levels. Crewe have done it for years, and the German model is now cutting it at Champions League level. We need to our own iteration of that same model.

One thing Fisher said the other evening was that football is all about winning. He's wrong. It's about being sustainable at our natural level. That's the only way we'll break this cycle

The problem with the former is that most owners don't gift money to clubs, they invest it through loans

I agree with you're final point, although again I do t think most fans will.

 

[Jack Griffin]

One thing Fisher said the other evening was that football is all about winning. He's wrong. It's about being sustainable at our natural level. That's the only way we'll break this cycle

I agree with that & have a history of posting as such.. but CCFC's natural level is Championship with occasional forays into the Premiership & D3.. well run we might hang on in the premiership for 10 years in any 20 year cycle as a yo yo club..

 

[WillieStanley]

I agree with that & have a history of posting as such.. but CCFC's natural level is Championship with occasional forays into the Premiership & D3.. well run we might hang on in the premiership for 10 years in any 20 year cycle as a yo yo club..

I totally disagree with that. I don't believe in natural levels. Who would have thought Tottenham would be attempting to punch their way into the Champions League in the 15 years prior to Redknapp? Or that Wigan would sustain a run in the PL... or Stoke for that matter. Who would have dreamt back in the 60's that our promotion to the top flight would last 35 years and that we'd feel agrieved about relegation? Or Luton's plight? Or that The Mighty Leeds Utd or Man City would spend so long in the wilderness.

Football is football. If a club is ran well enough it will achieve success and sustain it. That's not to say I believe the likes of Burton Albion will be in the Premier league any time soon, but clubs will grow and shrink based on the runnings of them. Look at Swansea as a prime example.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I agree with that & have a history of posting as such.. but CCFC's natural level is Championship with occasional forays into the Premiership & D3.. well run we might hang on in the premiership for 10 years in any 20 year cycle as a yo yo club..

Yes. Agreed. Sensible aspiration has to be the basis of any plan for our club.

The way SISU have played hard and loose, and Fisher's recent statements about football being 'all about winning' worry me

 

[wingy]

The most interesting bit last night was TF's statement - whilst avoiding the question from the SCG guy - that SISU had written off the £45m in their books. He then went on to explain that they would not exit CCFC now because they were "at the bottom of the business cycle".

So, what he (and presumably JS) is saying is that if they retain the club things will get financially better for them and they will exit with more money than they could now.

Really?? Really???

3 years (and does anyone honestly believe we'd really be in a new ground in 3 years?) playing away from the city. Low crowds, SISU having to fund losses (in TF's own words), FFP rules biting on our reduced and reducing turnover. Would we manage to stay in the third division? Would it be the fourth division before we came back to Coventry? How low will crowds have sunk by then? How many people will have lost the matchday habit? Don't even mention the investment in the new stadium.

If that really is your strategy Tim - beware "good money after bad".

DTD ,is it possible that SISU have already taken the hit and been divested of any more financial commitment in to the club .
I know we are told ARVO are part of the SISU group of companies ,but through the extraordinary debt build up last Season could they already have taken say 30p. in the pound,that would be a good reason to not carry the debt on your books,represent the conversion of debt to equity spoken of .If so who could be behind ARVO in that Scenario. We are constantly reminded she is hands on and spoken to every other day. Sometimes people Protesteth too much!!??

 

[stupot07]

Yes. Agreed. Sensible aspiration has to be the basis of any plan for our club.

The way SISU have played hard and loose, and Fisher's recent statements about football being 'all about winning' worry me

Key word there is aspirations not expectations.

My worry is that expectation are too high, and that following a take over fans will be expecting the owner to get around FFP and heavily investing to get out of this league. Then when we get promoted to heavily invest to make sure we say there and compete for promotion.

 

[procdoc]

Key word there is aspirations not expectations.

My worry is that expectation are too high, and that following a take over fans will be expecting the owner to get around FFP and heavily investing to get out of this league. Then when we get promoted to heavily invest to make sure we say there and compete for promotion.

I don't think we'd need heavy investment to get out of this league. You can have a title challenging team on a limited budget if that budget is spent wisely by the manager and if the managers tactics yield positive results.

 

[bigfatronssba]

Key word there is aspirations not expectations.

My worry is that expectation are too high, and that following a take over fans will be expecting the owner to get around FFP and heavily investing to get out of this league. Then when we get promoted to heavily invest to make sure we say there and compete for promotion.

I don't think any of the hardcore would expect that.

Most of us that have kept going over the last few years would just be happy with stability at the moment.

I agree to some point in natural levels, properly run the bigger clubs in this division always get promoted within a couple years. The key is though being properly run.

Reletively speaking, it wouldn't cost that much to get promotion in this league.

 

[oldskyblue58]

This comment from TF about SISU having written off the amounts.

I think what you will find is that they have to present an annual report to investors that reflects the value of their investment. Currently CCFC is worthless and would have been valued at nil. They would then put a provision in against the investment to show a nil value. That does not however write it off as TF implies...... the "investment" remains but its current value is nil. So say in 10 years time the TF fantasy comes true and the club is worth £20m then that same "investment" would not be shown at nil but as £20m

It is much like what appears in the CCFC H accounts. They show nothing owing from CCFC but we know from the administrator and the accounts of ccfc ltd that CCFC ltd owe CCFC H millions apparently. In preparing the accounts CCFC H have said the loan is presently irrecoverable and made a provision to reduce that debt from CCFC Ltd to nil. The debt however has not disappeared assuming you accept the basis upon which the accounts were prepared.

more of TF putting his spin on it i am afraid

 

[stupot07]

I don't think we'd need heavy investment to get out of this league. You can have a title challenging team on a limited budget if that budget is spent wisely by the manager and if the managers tactics yield positive results.

I agree you don't, our budget was big enough to compete this season, we just let thorn blow it on the wrong types of players.

 

[bigfatronssba]

This comment from TF about SISU having written off the amounts.

I think what you will find is that they have to present an annual report to investors that reflects the value of their investment. Currently CCFC is worthless and would have been valued at nil. They would then put a provision in against the investment to show a nil value. That does not however write it off as TF implies...... the "investment" remains but its current value is nil. So say in 10 years time the TF fantasy comes true and the club is worth £20m then that same "investment" would not be shown at nil but as £20m

It is much like what appears in the CCFC H accounts. They show nothing owing from CCFC but we know from the administrator and the accounts of ccfc ltd that CCFC ltd owe CCFC H millions apparently. In preparing the accounts CCFC H have said the loan is presently irrecoverable and made a provision to reduce that debt from CCFC Ltd to nil. The debt however has not disappeared assuming you accept the basis upon which the accounts were prepared.

more of TF putting his spin on it i am afraid

So basically its nil because of his incompetence, not out of Sisu kindness?

 

[stupot07]

I don't think any of the hardcore would expect that.

Most of us that have kept going over the last few years would just be happy with stability at the moment.

I agree to some point in natural levels, properly run the bigger clubs in this division always get promoted within a couple years. The key is though being properly run.

Reletively speaking, it wouldn't cost that much to get promotion in this league.

I agree the hardcore wouldn't but the 20k 'missing' probably will.

We need to get to position where we are properly run, have a rigid wage structure that we stick to.

 

[oldskyblue58]

So basically its nil because of his incompetence, not out of Sisu kindness?

SISU have by various Boards run their investment down from a supposed figure put in of £45m to a current value of £nil

Is a loan an investment?

 

[procdoc]

I agree you don't, our budget was big enough to compete this season, we just let thorn blow it on the wrong types of players.

I agree, we should have got rid of Thorn at the end of the season and let someone else bring in their own players. It was yet another example of Sisu's incompetence that they let Thorn build his squad and then sacked him a few weeks into the season

 

[The Penguin]

Problem is, most fans will expect a new owner to come on and splash the cash, they will not except being frugal, as soon as we get promoted to the championship where FFP is allowable losses expectations will rise along with debt again.

Our club is a tough gig, expectations are very high, possibly too high. Nothing wrong with ambition and aiming high but ambition and expectations are two different things.

Well it's about time most fans realised that those days, apart from a privileged few, are rapidly coming to an end.

 

[RegTheDonk]

Can someone who has business experience please explain the logic behind TF statement, when he said something to the effect of you dont sell when your rock bottom. Seems the exact opposite would be true to me...you are getting some return without putting more money in yourself.

 

[Grendel]

I agree, we should have got rid of Thorn at the end of the season and let someone else bring in their own players. It was yet another example of Sisu's incompetence that they let Thorn build his squad and then sacked him a few weeks into the season

It was a ludricous decision. To allow thorn to do pre season "training" let alone near player recruitment was a catastrophe.

 

[sw88]

One thing I agreed with last night was TF's answer regarding us holding on to players. He stated there are players who think they are good enough for the Championship. Most likely, these players are either coming out of contract this month, and we'll lose them for nothing, or the ones under contract will probably be out of contract next season (haven't got many tied down too long term apart from Bell I don't think). Would we want to risk losing them for nothing if an offer comes in and they are refusing to sign an extension? Ala Westwood? Could we afford to hold into players for too long?

 

[NorthernWisdom]

Can someone who has business experience please explain the logic behind TF statement, when he said something to the effect of you dont sell when your rock bottom. Seems the exact opposite would be true to me...you are getting some return without putting more money in yourself.

That actually makes sense to me in that you've spent a lot of cash already, proportionately your risk now is small as it's a choice of getting nothing, or trying to get something, and the sums involved are less than you potentially lose as of now. It's how they make their money after all, buy undervalued companies to turn around. The error from their part was actually buying too soon, before we'd actually hit the bottom of the cycle!

The concern is you don't sell when at the bottom of a cycle, I'd be a lot happier if he also reassured me you don't liquidate at the bottom of a cycle!

 

[stupot07]

One thing I agreed with last night was TF's answer regarding us holding on to players. He stated there are players who think they are good enough for the Championship. Most likely, these players are either coming out of contract this month, and we'll lose them for nothing, or the ones under contract will probably be out of contract next season (haven't got many tied down too long term apart from Bell I don't think). Would we want to risk losing them for nothing if an offer comes in and they are refusing to sign an extension? Ala Westwood? Could we afford to hold into players for too long?

That is an interesting point, for me I would rather get a fee than lose someone for nothing. Players are ever increasingly influenced by their agents.

 

[wingy]

That is an interesting point, for me I would rather get a fee than lose someone for nothing. Players are ever increasingly influenced by their agents.

But then it also sounded Ludicrous to say that it was the players own view that they are good enough to play in the /championship.

I mean some of them have already and those bought in Last season were recruited by the club for the purpose of getting the club there.:facepalm:

 

[stupot07]

But then it also sounded Ludicrous to say that it was the players own view that they are good enough to play in the /championship.

I mean some of them have already and those bought in Last season were recruited by the club for the purpose of getting the club there.:facepalm:

Can see where you're coming from, but I suppose you could point to reading and Blackpool, their players were good enough to get into the PL but not good enough to stay there.

And players who signed for us probably aren't good enough for the championship (yet) which I why they ended up in league one.

 

[Grendel]

But then it also sounded Ludicrous to say that it was the players own view that they are good enough to play in the /championship.

I mean some of them have already and those bought in Last season were recruited by the club for the purpose of getting the club there.:facepalm:

The owners to be fair have the club a healthy budget. Fisher did well to get the budget. Then he kept thorn and sanctioned stupid signings, some on long contracts.

So we cannot even trust him to manage the playing side let alone the overall strategy. I think he's lost the plot.

 

[Block19]

The club had put these forums on to speak to the fans but tell us nothing, but after going last night I enjoyed the evening more than some of the football I watched last season.

 

[CCFC_GT]

Can someone who has business experience please explain the logic behind TF statement, when he said something to the effect of you dont sell when your rock bottom. Seems the exact opposite would be true to me...you are getting some return without putting more money in yourself.

The business sense is that if you don't sell when the asset value is less than you have 'invested' you have not realised an actual real loss (or perhaps lost the opportunity of a profit), it remains just a loss on paper and you still have the asset to sell at a future point when the asset value is not rock bottom.

SISU seems to be determined and believes that it can get a better deal in future than it might get from selling now.

 

[wingy]

Can see where you're coming from, but I suppose you could point to reading and Blackpool, their players were good enough to get into the PL but not good enough to stay there.

And players who signed for us probably aren't good enough for the championship (yet) which I why they ended up in league one.

Yeah I see that just that it sounded the convenient answer as ever, we know we sell always have always will, god knows what we'll recoup now,you get very little when clubs smell desperation. Getting what we did for Keogh and BIGI must have put us extremely close to break even with Cup runs ,that's why I see this proposal as suicide, The model last season worked and if they chose to stay and pay £400k last years crowds could have supported a player budget of Circa£3.5M. with the proposed player cull or The selling of a £1M. player.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Anyone know what Steve Brookfields background is ? Business history and qualifications ?

 

[wingy]

Anyone know what Steve Brookfields background is ? Business history and qualifications ?

I'm thinking he's due a Riposte from you tomorrow night.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

That was just another way of blaming someone else when they sell our better players excuses excuses excuses Never his or Sisu's fault
sold them because in 1902 the old board then in 1998 the kit was changed so we had to do it.

One thing I agreed with last night was TF's answer regarding us holding on to players. He stated there are players who think they are good enough for the Championship. Most likely, these players are either coming out of contract this month, and we'll lose them for nothing, or the ones under contract will probably be out of contract next season (haven't got many tied down too long term apart from Bell I don't think). Would we want to risk losing them for nothing if an offer comes in and they are refusing to sign an extension? Ala Westwood? Could we afford to hold into players for too long?

 

[covcity4life]

i talked to tim fisher after the forum

he said new stadium isnt technically in coventry:facepalm: but you dont have to get out of 3rd gear so it should be classed as cov in his opinion. i warned him that fans wont be happy travelling down A roads etc

other than that he seemed an alright guy but obviously alot of that is BS charm no doubt. mad ea funny joke about the trust operating out of the back of a boozer lol

 

[olderskyblue]

i talked to tim fisher after the forum

he said new stadium isnt technically in coventry:facepalm: but you dont have to get out of 3rd gear so it should be classed as cov in his opinion. i warned him that fans wont be happy travelling down A roads etc

other than that he seemed an alright guy but obviously alot of that is BS charm no doubt. mad ea funny joke about the trust operating out of the back of a boozer lol

The club shop is a wheelbarrow, so not sure why he's laughing at that. Maybe they can't afford Mayfair offices, but then they're not £70M in debt either....

 

[ajsccfc]

I can't imagine any way to get to Brandon in third gear or lower without being beeped and swore at a lot.