Give TM a chance (4 Viewers)

[Otis]

you sound like a parent scolding a 4 year old. This season has seen progress made. It took Jimmy Hill 2 and a half years to get us out of division 3 in the sixties. That from a position much stronger than the one TM finds himself in. No doubt JH would be taking stick from people on here for not achieving promotion straight away. I have really enjoyed this season. That includes the last two away games I have been to, Shrewsbury and last night. On both of these occasions the team were given a standing ovation at the end, a) because they ran their socks off and b) because their performances warrented much more than the results they ended up with. TM tries to play fast, exciting attacking football. There was more excitment in that match last night than the whole of Pressley's tenure last season. Yes, we are going to have to build again next season. I am sure it will be like starting all over again. However, there does seem to be a plan. It does look like they are trying to build and build early, and with our own players. It does look like the Maddison money is being reinvested. Time will tell, but to me it does look like Anderson is trying to do the right thing. He seems to have a strategy to move forward. (Doesn't mean I like or trust Sisu). Look what TM has done this season, and the hope he has given. He is not a miracle worker, no manager ( apart from JH maybe) is. His "failures" at Middlesborough are constantly brought up to show that he is a bottler. Clough failed at Leeds and Brighton, Shankley at Huddersfield. Both went on to have amazing success. What he needs is time and support from the club. I am sick of the hire and fire policy, revolving door managers are in and out with no time or chance of succeeding at our club. We have had 12 managers in the 14 years since relegation from the top flight. Our current position is where that policy has got us. Some on here seem to think we should just carry on doing the same old thing. In my view, the club need to stick by TM, not be swayed by dips in results, keep a long term vision in mind and stick to it. As Anderson said at the Trust forum, constantly changing managers doesn't work. We have a good one ( opinion based on having supported this club for 50 years). We need to stick with him and give him a chance.

Unfortunately football has moved on from the 60's and 70's, so there's nothing to compare. Most managers don't even last 2 years and you can't say that doesn't work, because most clubs opetate on such a manner and of course clubs still have success and make play-offs and win league titles across the leagues.

The game has changed, rightly or wrongly and there is no comparison to be had.

 

---

[steve82]

I want TM to stay, sure he's a history of seasons that drop and fade away. But out of them all this was possibly the hardest challenge of them all
To drop down to the 3rd tier of English football where where it's physical and tough, anyone can beat anyone on there day. Take on a club with a negative culture, save them from relegation with a few loan deals. To then set about putting a team together on a budget with no scouting system in place over a summer.
Assemble a team of kids and loans supplemented with a few frees of his choice and a signing for a small amount of cash to be the midfield warrior we badly needed. We then hit the ground running, the team is fearless and relatively free scoring. Back 4 is settled and looks strong. We're watching the best football for years! Monday mornings are a joy, brag about another quality win, villa are slipping further away...Fleck and vincelot are a match made in heaven oozing strength and quality. Arma is scoring for fun... Wide midfielders have pace and a eye for goal. Ex England international Joe cole signs.. Shit what a season this is.
Bang... Reda is out for the season. Unlucky injury. TM drafts in turner, we blow the leaders gillingham away and are top!
Bang... Turners out on the run up to Xmas fixtures No big dominant defender and teams start to suss us then and defend deeper and wait for our mistakes in our patched up back 4. A few wobbly moments in games from RCC cost us and strange ref decisions too.
Kids aint so fluent we stumble through Xmas period, we blow Crewe away in a great first half display where kids are fearless once more.
2 Crucial games in a week, a draw against burton who wait for our now customary mistake. Unlucky Phillips on this occasion who's calm chested back pass don't make it to RCC, and Walsall go back up M6 with maximum pts. Kids ain't fearless anymore, back 4 look a shambles with no confidence and zero communication, tho RCC is pulling off some great saves bailing us out weekly.
TM drafts in experienced players to try and lift the team but they don't have the desired effect and seem past there prime. (Maybe why there now in the 3rd tier earning there crust.) deadline day signing of Stephens and cargil lift the spirits after the late sale of a promising James Maddison. More losses follow and old patterns come back, players ain't performing like they were and looking shadows of what they were, flecks back to misplacing 8 passes a game, vincelot is no longer the stable warrior and arma ain't getting a sniff. Wide players look shy and scared to run. Confidence is gone apart from a 6-0 win v a very poor bury. Set pieces are still a issue and costing games. Experienced key players are too easily switching off at key times mainly Sam Ricketts who lacks any leadership qualities and don't look interested anymore. Cargil now injured, never known such bad luck in injuries in a key area. Play offs now a dream away and slipping further away after yet more defensive woes in another patched up defence.
It's very clear that the demise of the season is largely down to our injuries to key defensive players and the swapping of players around to fill the holes created by this. Also the old quote of you'll never win anything with kids strikes so true. The ability to keep the levels of performance required to see a season out was unable to be achieved. TM always remained calm about our position, deep down he knew all along we'd not last.
Im sure TM has learned from this season after a year now at the helm and if he gets the next phase of recruitment correct then we should have another great season. Early signings of Jones from daggenham and a Bulgarian international look promising moving forwards with Lorenztson and Rose signed too. If we can sign another 20+ goal striker on a free or loan bolster the defence with quality and a natural leader top of the list. Compliment that with the contracted players we have and promising u21 players like George Thomas, Harries we will have another good season. There is not many other managers out there id like and I like his set up of TM, JC and MV. Plus TM's lucks got to change at some point!!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

He hasn't been unlucky with Johnson's injury, he's missed at least half a season for the last 7-8 years. Its his injury that has caused all the problems trying to replace him. We were unlucky with Turner but had he stayed fit, I don't think he'd have stayed beyond his loan spell. Martin, willis and now stokes though.

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Don't think we were unlucky with Turner wither. The only reason we had him was because Cardiff wanted him eased in to build him up.

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

Unfortunately football has moved on from the 60's and 70's, so there's nothing to compare. Most managers don't even last 2 years and you can't say that doesn't work, because most clubs opetate on such a manner and of course clubs still have success and make play-offs and win league titles across the leagues.

The game has changed, rightly or wrongly and there is no comparison to be had.

Maybe time to break that mould then and stick with someone long term. Twelve managers in 14 years has seen two relegations and precious few highlights but lots of dross and near disasters. There are exceptions to your rule, Ferguson and Wenger of course, Dario Gradi at Crewe, Pullis at Stoke, Howe Bournemouth, Moyses at Everton, Robinson at MK. There are also clubs like Swansea and Burton who seem to have a system that continues when their, usually successful manager, is poached. This was something that Anderson said he was going to put in place so that if TM does leave (not sacked), the system will carry on. I think both CA and TM deserve to be given time to continue to build. For someone who doesn't want TM sacked your argument seems a little strange! Do you really believe that the way forward for our club is yet another round of pay offs for TM and staff and yet another change of direction? Who would you get that is better than TM? I know I asked you this before on a previous thread but you did not answer. I can't think of anyone better than him who would come to a cash strapped, homeless third division club and play football that most of the time is a pleasure to watch.

 

[Huckerby]

I want TM to stay, sure he's a history of seasons that drop and fade away. But out of them all this was possibly the hardest challenge of them all
To drop down to the 3rd tier of English football where where it's physical and tough, anyone can beat anyone on there day. Take on a club with a negative culture, save them from relegation with a few loan deals. To then set about putting a team together on a budget with no scouting system in place over a summer.
Assemble a team of kids and loans supplemented with a few frees of his choice and a signing for a small amount of cash to be the midfield warrior we badly needed. We then hit the ground running, the team is fearless and relatively free scoring. Back 4 is settled and looks strong. We're watching the best football for years! Monday mornings are a joy, brag about another quality win, villa are slipping further away...Fleck and vincelot are a match made in heaven oozing strength and quality. Arma is scoring for fun... Wide midfielders have pace and a eye for goal. Ex England international Joe cole signs.. Shit what a season this is.
Bang... Reda is out for the season. Unlucky injury. TM drafts in turner, we blow the leaders gillingham away and are top!
Bang... Turners out on the run up to Xmas fixtures No big dominant defender and teams start to suss us then and defend deeper and wait for our mistakes in our patched up back 4. A few wobbly moments in games from RCC cost us and strange ref decisions too.
Kids aint so fluent we stumble through Xmas period, we blow Crewe away in a great first half display where kids are fearless once more.
2 Crucial games in a week, a draw against burton who wait for our now customary mistake. Unlucky Phillips on this occasion who's calm chested back pass don't make it to RCC, and Walsall go back up M6 with maximum pts. Kids ain't fearless anymore, back 4 look a shambles with no confidence and zero communication, tho RCC is pulling off some great saves bailing us out weekly.
TM drafts in experienced players to try and lift the team but they don't have the desired effect and seem past there prime. (Maybe why there now in the 3rd tier earning there crust.) deadline day signing of Stephens and cargil lift the spirits after the late sale of a promising James Maddison. More losses follow and old patterns come back, players ain't performing like they were and looking shadows of what they were, flecks back to misplacing 8 passes a game, vincelot is no longer the stable warrior and arma ain't getting a sniff. Wide players look shy and scared to run. Confidence is gone apart from a 6-0 win v a very poor bury. Set pieces are still a issue and costing games. Experienced key players are too easily switching off at key times mainly Sam Ricketts who lacks any leadership qualities and don't look interested anymore. Cargil now injured, never known such bad luck in injuries in a key area. Play offs now a dream away and slipping further away after yet more defensive woes in another patched up defence.
It's very clear that the demise of the season is largely down to our injuries to key defensive players and the swapping of players around to fill the holes created by this. Also the old quote of you'll never win anything with kids strikes so true. The ability to keep the levels of performance required to see a season out was unable to be achieved. TM always remained calm about our position, deep down he knew all along we'd not last.
Im sure TM has learned from this season after a year now at the helm and if he gets the next phase of recruitment correct then we should have another great season. Early signings of Jones from daggenham and a Bulgarian international look promising moving forwards with Lorenztson and Rose signed too. If we can sign another 20+ goal striker on a free or loan bolster the defence with quality and a natural leader top of the list. Compliment that with the contracted players we have and promising u21 players like George Thomas, Harries we will have another good season. There is not many other managers out there id like and I like his set up of TM, JC and MV. Plus TM's lucks got to change at some point!!

Agree with this.

Maybe get ajose I'm next season

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[steve82]

He hasn't been unlucky with Johnson's injury, he's missed at least half a season for the last 7-8 years. Its his injury that has caused all the problems trying to replace him. We were unlucky with Turner but had he stayed fit, I don't think he'd have stayed beyond his loan spell. Martin, willis and now stokes though.

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Maybe if TM had of found a suitable replacement for he he'd of signed him unless he did but the suitable replacement went somewhere else hence why we stuck with reda.
TM was are of his history and vowed to manage his playing time and training programme. This looked to be working till the Blackpool player fell on him... This is not the normal torn hamstring or pulled calf type of injury. Sheer bad luck.

 

[Jack Griffin]

This season is all but over, I don't expect a return to form good enough to claw back into the top 6.

TM & MV have been signing the nucleus of a more settled team for next season, some pace, some players with good stamina, some more skilful, some with grit.

The problem areas are centre of defence & up front, I think the defence needs addressing in summer, the attackers will probably have to be loaned, though it might be possible to get a veteran strong/holding player like Fortune on board.

Worth giving TM another shot, at least he won't get you relegated, someone less experienced like SP might.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Whilst that's true, they are still or better players and you'd want to build around them rather than replace them, and as poor as this form is, they were part of the early season good form too.

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Armstrong will be missed for sure and it will be a big job replacing him, the rest are replaceable

Fleck has been here for 4 years now and achieved nothing, Johnson only plays 15 games a season, Murphy been poor most of the season, Maddison is talented but he's only played about 10 games and wasn't actually playing for most of the time when we were winning, Cole I think hasn't really worked out. MAF, Ricketts, Henderson, Tudgay, Hunt most will be glad to have them off the wage bill.

There the only ones we know are definitely or probably leaving.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

And without those sackings we'd never have had the period of glorious success that followed.

Yeah FWIW I agree.

Sure, generally there's a new manager bounce, but inevitably sacking a manager doesn't have much of an effect overall. You get peaks and troughs (Pressley is a good example of extreme peaks and troughs!) but overall, the same trend happens.

Our trend is medicority.

So if the board had faith in Mowbray for the job when they appointed him, they should have faith now. The only complicating factor is Anderson has replaced Waggot... so at least there is *some* justification for making a change if they aren't on the same wavelength.

But ultimately much as players, managers have strengths and weaknesses. We see nothing with Mowbray fans of other clubs he's managed at have remarked upon.

We've had some good games, good results and, sure, current form is dire but... if we're also signing players on permanent contracts and planning for next season, we should at least have some faith to see how it pans out, that there's a quest for the good games and good results to be more commonplace.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

though it might be possible to get a veteran strong/holding player like Fortune on board.

I was with you until this dystopian view of the future!

 

[Jack Griffin]

I was with you until this dystopian view of the future!

LOL, OK, sorta like Fortune only better, Plattian maybe

 

[Block19]

Wasn't operation premership a 3 year plan. A bit worried when a time scale is set. Mobray is the best manager since the last one.
Only as good as his last match. ☺

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[Otis]

Wasn't operation premership a 3 year plan. A bit worried when a time scale is set. Mobray is the best manager since the last one.
Only as good as his last match. ☺

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I would definitely say Tony Mowbray is the best manager we have ever had this season.

The one we didn't have was completely useless.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

LOL, OK, sorta like Fortune only better, Plattian maybe

Scary to think that... we've been crying out for Clive Platt this season:thinking about:

 

[oucho]

Mowbray's run in right up there with Dowie Boothroyd and Adams. They were all sacked.

Clueless ones are those that stick their fingers in their ears and just think things will turn round.

Clueless one are those who want success now now now, and think that replacing the manager will achieve that. Guess what ... short term fixes, applied on average every 12 months or so, have not led to long term success.

We need to write off three years and give the manager (might as well be TM as he is in place now) permission to fail in the short term, but to renew the entire playing squad, work with a whole generation of youth teamers to bring them into a vision-based setup. All the chopping and changing, hoping for the best, has got us nowhere.

The most radical "change" to make is no change at all and stick with a bloke through thick and thin- that would be a welcome change in itself. The next game doesn't matter provided we have continuity for the long term.

 

[Nick]

Clueless one are those who want success now now now, and think that replacing the manager will achieve that. Guess what ... short term fixes, applied on average every 12 months or so, have not led to long term success.

We need to write off three years and give the manager (might as well be TM as he is in place now) permission to fail in the short term, but to renew the entire playing squad, work with a whole generation of youth teamers to bring them into a vision-based setup. All the chopping and changing, hoping for the best, has got us nowhere.

The most radical "change" to make is no change at all and stick with a bloke through thick and thin- that would be a welcome change in itself. The next game doesn't matter provided we have continuity for the long term.

Replacing the manager kept us up last year didn't it? Not replacing the manager got us relegated

 

[Otis]

Replacing the manager kept us up last year didn't it? Not replacing the manager got us relegated

And could be very rationally argued, had we sacked TM during the terrible run, but while we were in the top 6, that could have made all the difference to our staying in the play-offs.

 

[The Reverend Skyblue]

I've said many times I want him to stay but by god if we keep plummeting he has got to get it right over the entire season next time.
I just know we will start well and all our hopes will be raised, but we all know even if we are twenty points clear at the top by Xmas none of us will be confident of still being in the top two by season end.
He does make some startling decisions that make no sense, but I really want the bloke to do well next season, nothing would make me happier.

 

[steve82]

Clueless one are those who want success now now now, and think that replacing the manager will achieve that. Guess what ... short term fixes, applied on average every 12 months or so, have not led to long term success.

We need to write off three years and give the manager (might as well be TM as he is in place now) permission to fail in the short term, but to renew the entire playing squad, work with a whole generation of youth teamers to bring them into a vision-based setup. All the chopping and changing, hoping for the best, has got us nowhere.

The most radical "change" to make is no change at all and stick with a bloke through thick and thin- that would be a welcome change in itself. The next game doesn't matter provided we have continuity for the long term.

This is correct, stability is what's needed put the foundations down right through the club. Develop from u18's up to first team squad with the managements style of play and clubs philosophy. Focus for a club like ours is develop the youth, and promote them to the first team and yes unfortunately sell the pick of the players to keep the academy strong and up to date and keep developing our first team. This can only be done effectively if the first team manager is kept the same for s few seasons. Stability is key.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Clueless one are those who want success now now now, and think that replacing the manager will achieve that. Guess what ... short term fixes, applied on average every 12 months or so, have not led to long term success.

We need to write off three years and give the manager (might as well be TM as he is in place now) permission to fail in the short term, but to renew the entire playing squad, work with a whole generation of youth teamers to bring them into a vision-based setup. All the chopping and changing, hoping for the best, has got us nowhere.

The most radical "change" to make is no change at all and stick with a bloke through thick and thin- that would be a welcome change in itself. The next game doesn't matter provided we have continuity for the long term.

Clueless are those that believe these owners would allow us to keep anyone for more then a season if they are worth anything.
So short term is all we have, and as for saying people should look at the long term.
We have been waiting long enough.

We have seen the Vision of this club and to be honest it is not good.
Then you have people like TF telling us we cannot survive in the championship!!!!!!!
So should we accept that this is our level and then expect the club to survive?

 

[dongonzalos]

you sound like a parent scolding a 4 year old. This season has seen progress made. It took Jimmy Hill 2 and a half years to get us out of division 3 in the sixties. That from a position much stronger than the one TM finds himself in. No doubt JH would be taking stick from people on here for not achieving promotion straight away. I have really enjoyed this season. That includes the last two away games I have been to, Shrewsbury and last night. On both of these occasions the team were given a standing ovation at the end, a) because they ran their socks off and b) because their performances warrented much more than the results they ended up with. TM tries to play fast, exciting attacking football. There was more excitment in that match last night than the whole of Pressley's tenure last season. Yes, we are going to have to build again next season. I am sure it will be like starting all over again. However, there does seem to be a plan. It does look like they are trying to build and build early, and with our own players. It does look like the Maddison money is being reinvested. Time will tell, but to me it does look like Anderson is trying to do the right thing. He seems to have a strategy to move forward. (Doesn't mean I like or trust Sisu). Look what TM has done this season, and the hope he has given. He is not a miracle worker, no manager ( apart from JH maybe) is. His "failures" at Middlesborough are constantly brought up to show that he is a bottler. Clough failed at Leeds and Brighton, Shankley at Huddersfield. Both went on to have amazing success. What he needs is time and support from the club. I am sick of the hire and fire policy, revolving door managers are in and out with no time or chance of succeeding at our club. We have had 12 managers in the 14 years since relegation from the top flight. Our current position is where that policy has got us. Some on here seem to think we should just carry on doing the same old thing. In my view, the club need to stick by TM, not be swayed by dips in results, keep a long term vision in mind and stick to it. As Anderson said at the Trust forum, constantly changing managers doesn't work. We have a good one ( opinion based on having supported this club for 50 years). We need to stick with him and give him a chance.

Thank god for some common sense

 

[dongonzalos]

Maybe time to break that mould then and stick with someone long term. Twelve managers in 14 years has seen two relegations and precious few highlights but lots of dross and near disasters. There are exceptions to your rule, Ferguson and Wenger of course, Dario Gradi at Crewe, Pullis at Stoke, Howe Bournemouth, Moyses at Everton, Robinson at MK. There are also clubs like Swansea and Burton who seem to have a system that continues when their, usually successful manager, is poached. This was something that Anderson said he was going to put in place so that if TM does leave (not sacked), the system will carry on. I think both CA and TM deserve to be given time to continue to build. For someone who doesn't want TM sacked your argument seems a little strange! Do you really believe that the way forward for our club is yet another round of pay offs for TM and staff and yet another change of direction? Who would you get that is better than TM? I know I asked you this before on a previous thread but you did not answer. I can't think of anyone better than him who would come to a cash strapped, homeless third division club and play football that most of the time is a pleasure to watch.

13 managers in 14 years. It's ridiculous and clearly doesn't work
Try something different let him build his own team to suit his playing philosophy

 

[dongonzalos]

And could be very rationally argued, had we sacked TM during the terrible run, but while we were in the top 6, that could have made all the difference to our staying in the play-offs.

But you don't want him sacked remember so you wouldn't rationally argue that

 

[Otis]

But you don't want him sacked remember so you wouldn't rationally argue that

No, I don't want him sacked.

Not arguing it, just saying, it might have saved our season.

To my mind, despite people keep saying our form would change, it seemed that the slide was simply just going to continue.

The 2nd half of the season has had an air of predictability about it.

I'm no Nostradamus, but when we went 1-0 against Burton I knew the game was over.

I was convinced that once we dropped out of the top 6 we weren't getting back in again. 5 points behind now, so looking very, very likely indeed that, that will indeed be the case.

I could see the Fleetwood, Rochdale and Shrewsbury defeats coming. I said on Friday night after about 20 mins, that the game had defeat written all over it.

This season had all been about a new Coventry City and a new belief. After Christmas though it became same old, same old, been here before, got the T-shirt.

I honestly don't think we will beat Colchester either. I think going those 5 points behind will have knocked a lot of stuffing out of us, and as Bradford play Crewe on Monday afternoon, that may well be 8 points behind by the time we play on Tuesday night.

This season has become so predictable and now I think an awful lot of us are just expecting us to fail. The team are duly obliging.

Another thing that worries me is the Bury syndrome. I really don't think we can put much creed in how we played in Friday. I think a fair few people seem to think it gives faith for the rest of the season, because we played so well.

Truth is, Peterborough in that first half were the worst team we have played all season.

We beat Bury 6-0 and we all thought, fantastic, this is it, this is the turnaround in form. That proved to be a very, very false dawn indeed.

We did play well in that first half on Friday night, but by god they were really awful. It was like opening up the Red Sea.

I think we will be in for a shock Tuesday. I think Colchester will really come at us, deny us space and press us hard.

I don't think we will lose, but I don't think we will win either. Our inability to score goals, our terrible form, our lack of confidence and Colchester's desperation to win, will make this a very tough game.

Would love us to win for sure and will be 100% rooting for it, but like I say, this season now very much has an air of predictability about it.

To go from 11 points clear of 7th place, to 9 in the table and 5 points behind 6th place is failure and failure on a massive scale.

All I have ever wanted is for TM to do something about our woeful run and halt the slide.

It's not happened.

 

[Otis]

To add to the difficulty in beating Colchester, you also need to look at our form too.

Last 6 home games makes for depressing reading.

City 0-2 Burton

City 1-2 Scunthorpe

City 6-0 Bury

City 1-2 Fleetwood

City 0-1 Rochdale

City 0-0 Swindon

So, 6 games, 1 win, 1 draw, 4 defeats.

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

Replacing the manager kept us up last year didn't it? Not replacing the manager got us relegated

Or alternative view, is that constantly sacking managers has taken us down two divisions.

 

[Grendel]

Or alternative view, is that constantly sacking managers has taken us down two divisions.

So if when Thorn took over you would have wanted to give him 3 years minimum regardless of how results would turn out would you?

 

[Otis]

Would like people to list those managers we shouldn't have sacked.

Thorn - Had to go. One of the worst managers in our entire history.

Boothroyd - Yep. Had to go.

Coleman - Had to go.

Pressley - Seemingly lost the dressing room, had to go.

Dowie - Possibly could have been given a little longer.

Adams - possibly could have been given a little longer.

Reid - Had to go.

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

So if when Thorn took over you would have wanted to give him 3 years minimum regardless of how results would turn out would you?

On the Album of the Soundtrack of the Trailer of the Film of Monty Python and the Holy Grail there's a great sketch about invalid logic.

Might be worth a listen

 

[Grendel]

On the Album of the Soundtrack of the Trailer of the Film of Monty Python and the Holy Grail there's a great sketch about invalid logic.

Might be worth a listen

Surely invalid logic is saying that you should retain a manager as we normally don't when they fail.

You said sackings led to two relegations.

I would argue not sacking the managers in office at the time ensured relegation.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Would like people to list those managers we shouldn't have sacked.

Thorn - Had to go. One of the worst managers in our entire history.

Boothroyd - Yep. Had to go.

Coleman - Had to go.

Pressley - Seemingly lost the dressing room, had to go.

Dowie - Possibly could have been given a little longer.

Adams - possibly could have been given a little longer.

Reid - Had to go.

Wouldn't have appointed Reid or Boothroyd in the first place, they were choices that showed the ineptitude of those making the decisions. Therefore the people to go should have been those making the decisions.

Once we'd stuck with Coleman past Charlton away, the later time was a time to keep him. Would have kept Adams, Dowie, Pressley... Mowbray too.

Results are transient, but if the trend is downwards then either those making the decisions are incapable of choosing a decent manager... in which case why should they try again and again and waste money paying them off and swapping over the playing staff for the next one's favourites...

If, however, they're all decent managers (Reid incidentally had a damned fine record with Sunderland and Man City, it was us wot ruined him and the issue wasn't him as such, it was the manner in which he was installed) then the issue is the club.

 

[Otis]

Surely invalid logic is saying that you should retain a manager as we normally don't when they fail.

You said sackings led to two relegations.

I would argue not sacking the managers in office at the time ensured relegation.

Agree. Had we sacked Thorn I am convinced we would have stayed up.

We should have sacked Coleman after the 4-1 away at Charlton last day of the season. Only the width of a post stopped us going down that year.

 

[Hobo]

Would like people to list those managers we shouldn't have sacked.

Thorn - Had to go. One of the worst managers in our entire history.

Boothroyd - Yep. Had to go.

Coleman - Had to go.

Pressley - Seemingly lost the dressing room, had to go.

Dowie - Possibly could have been given a little longer.

Adams - possibly could have been given a little longer.

Reid - Had to go.

What the club do need is a good infrastructure and a consistent footballing philosophy. So the managers work to that framework. If they believe academy is the way to go they need to show it with some investment in permanent facilities. Clubs who have had stability normally do well. Burton have lost good managers but they have recruited wisely and have a clear strategy. The manager is just the figurehead of a team, coaches, physiotherapists, fitness advisors, scouting at different levels. Then there is the business side. All these things interact and the right message has to come from the owners: not mixed or contradictions every other day.

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

Surely invalid logic is saying that you should retain a manager as we normally don't when they fail.

You said sackings led to two relegations.

I would argue not sacking the managers in office at the time ensured relegation.

So using your logic, the reason for our fall down the divisions is that we have not been sacking managers frequently enough.

So, another 5 sackings would have seen us steady in the Championship, 10 would have us in the promised land of the Premier League and with 20, we'd be parading the Champions' League trophy around the streets of Coventry.

On a slightly more serious note, there will always be occasions where a sacking is necessary, but I believe that at some point you have to find a manager that you can trust and stick with him - give him a chance to build something. The other option is to continue the cycle of dismantle, build, dismantle, build etc.

Personally I think that TM should be given that time. The current run is grim, but as has been pointed out here before, look back on Jimmy Hill's record and he had a similar run in (I think) his second season. TM talks good sense compared to most of what we have heard from his predecessors and despite the current run, I am much more optimistic about our situation than I was before SP departed.

 

[Otis]

Wouldn't have appointed Reid or Boothroyd in the first place, they were choices that showed the ineptitude of those making the decisions. Therefore the people to go should have been those making the decisions.

Once we'd stuck with Coleman past Charlton away, the later time was a time to keep him. Would have kept Adams, Dowie, Pressley... Mowbray too.

Results are transient, but if the trend is downwards then either those making the decisions are incapable of choosing a decent manager... in which case why should they try again and again and waste money paying them off and swapping over the playing staff for the next one's favourites...

If, however, they're all decent managers (Reid incidentally had a damned fine record with Sunderland and Man City, it was us wot ruined him and the issue wasn't him as such, it was the manner in which he was installed) then the issue is the club.

You would have kept Pressley? Interesting.

Quite a few negative comments about him from ex players and from within the club.

It was definitely right to rid in my eyes.

With Mowbray I listen to what he has to say and I get the feeling he is watching the same game as me. Robins too.

With Pressley I always wondered if we were even watching the same sport.