The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (29 Viewers)

[SIR ERNIE]

It must be wrong as it is in the Daily Mail

haha yes and according to martcov Scotland and Northern Ireland will soon be joining the EU.

 

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[mrtrench]

I can't agree the country hasn't moved to the right, for example, look at the banking crisis, those who were advocating Keynesian economics policies were been shot down as some sort of communists even though the IMF were wary of austerity.
Anything a bit further left than centre is branded as extremist, it doesn't bode well for a successful democracy, like or loathe Corbyn, at least he has tried to focus on debating issues rather than get involved in insults and name calling, unfortunately he's fighting a losing battle and we'll be consigned to a political elite who rely on sound bites and media friendly presentation.

Do you mean the Keynesian Economics that recommends saving during boom and spending during recession? The Keynesian Economics that Ed Balls called for in 2010? The Keynesian Economics that Balls ignored along with Brown when he was increasing the deficit (the rate of change of the debt - not just the debt - he was increasing the speed at which it grew) all the way during the growth years? All that mismanagement of the budget that lead to a black hole in the finances when the shit hit the fan? Keynes didn't say that you should run up debt during growth and then run it up some more during recession.

I don't know how he had the bare-faced cheek to say it.

 

[Astute]

haha yes and according to martcov Scotland and Northern Ireland will soon be joining the EU.

I think you mean leave the UK so that they can remain in the EU.

NI are starting to get reliant on the EU. So that might well happen. But if Sturgeon got her own way and got independence from the UK Scotland would be going along a dodgy path. They would be giving up on a union where they have a big say to remain in another Union where they would hardly have a say. Just like they hardly have a say in the EU now.

 

[Kingokings204]

I think you mean leave the UK so that they can remain in the EU.

NI are starting to get reliant on the EU. So that might well happen. But if Sturgeon got her own way and got independence from the UK Scotland would be going along a dodgy path. They would be giving up on a union where they have a big say to remain in another Union where they would hardly have a say. Just like they hardly have a say in the EU now.

I find the northern ireland situation much more relevant than Scotland. Scotland have a vile leader who should be ashamed of herself. Not much time for her sadly.

As for Northern Ireland. Their leaders have been a bit more respectful. Now we all know Ireland as a country split to form the Uk in 1921-22. Now it's consent that's the issue.

If Northern Ireland wanted to join Southern Ireland then it would as clearly geographically it makes sense. They are the only uk country not joined landlocked.

It makes more sense regardless of the U.K. And EU for Ireland to be as one anyway or both be part of Britain. Never really understood why Northern Ireland stayed part of the U.K back all that time. It's a strange one.

 

[clint van damme]

Do you mean the Keynesian Economics that recommends saving during boom and spending during recession? The Keynesian Economics that Ed Balls called for in 2010? The Keynesian Economics that Balls ignored along with Brown when he was increasing the deficit (the rate of change of the debt - not just the debt - he was increasing the speed at which it grew) all the way during the growth years? All that mismanagement of the budget that lead to a black hole in the finances when the shit hit the fan? Keynes didn't say that you should run up debt during growth and then run it up some more during recession.

I don't know how he had the bare-faced cheek to say it.

you've missed my point, I wasn't arguing the mechanics of it, I was using it as an example of centre left thinking that was branded as some sort of radical socialist idea. It's happening more and more frequently and that's why I think this countries lurching to the right.

 

[clint van damme]

It must be wrong as it is in the Daily Mail

it's not wrong just selective, there's literally 2 quotes in that article from the whole report.

The proper thing is here:
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2016/CAR070816A.htm

But then again, what do you expect from readers of the daily mail

 

[mrtrench]

you've missed my point, I wasn't arguing the mechanics of it, I was using it as an example of centre left thinking that was branded as some sort of radical socialist idea. It's happening more and more frequently and that's why I think this countries lurching to the right.

Really? I'm not aware of Keynes being considered a left wing idea - indeed it all makes perfect sense to me. My perception is just that we should be spending now but cannot given the debt in 2010.
What makes you think it is a left wing idea that's branded as radical?

 

[RegTheDonk]

I was talking about Northern Ireland as Martcov thinks the union will break up.

Yeah I know you were...anybody who thought you meant Rep of Ireland is either being dumb or trying to pick a row.

 

[chiefdave]

What makes you think it is a left wing idea that's branded as radical?

When you look at things that are now labelled radical or far left it just shows how much politics as a whole has moved to the right.

 

[clint van damme]

When you look at things that are now labelled radical or far left it just shows how much politics as a whole has moved to the right.

this is my point.

 

[clint van damme]

Really? I'm not aware of Keynes being considered a left wing idea - indeed it all makes perfect sense to me. My perception is just that we should be spending now but cannot given the debt in 2010.
What makes you think it is a left wing idea that's branded as radical?

I called him left of centre, that is debatable, and indeed is debated.
But when certain politicians wanted Keynesian economic policies implemented to see us out of austerity they were shot down in flames.

 

[skybluetony176]

I find the northern ireland situation much more relevant than Scotland. Scotland have a vile leader who should be ashamed of herself. Not much time for her sadly.

As for Northern Ireland. Their leaders have been a bit more respectful. Now we all know Ireland as a country split to form the Uk in 1921-22. Now it's consent that's the issue.

If Northern Ireland wanted to join Southern Ireland then it would as clearly geographically it makes sense. They are the only uk country not joined landlocked.

It makes more sense regardless of the U.K. And EU for Ireland to be as one anyway or both be part of Britain. Never really understood why Northern Ireland stayed part of the U.K back all that time. It's a strange one.

Because the Provence of Ulster had the highest concentration of Irish protestants anywhere in Ireland and as a community they swore allegiance to the crown and remained part of the UK. The catholic to protestant dynamics has been changing for decades and at some point Catholics will outnumber protestants and I think that was the dynamic that politicians were waiting for to change before Ireland could truly hope to be united again. However Northern Irelands biggest trading partner is the South and as a country Northern Ireland can't afford to lose that. You now have a situation where Southern Ireland passport applications from north of the border are at an all time high and it isn't just Catholics applying for them, protestants are too. If we end up coming out of the common market as well as the EU I would think a united Ireland is almost inevitable as there will be a hunger to do that from both sides of the religious divide as economics will take the pivotal role in Northern Irelands future over religion and loyalism to the crown. Especially in the border counties, which is pretty much all of them.

 

[clint van damme]

Because the Provence of Ulster had the highest concentration of Irish protestants anywhere in Ireland and as a community they swore allegiance to the crown and remained part of the UK. The catholic to protestant dynamics has been changing for decades and ay some point Catholics will outnumber protestants and I think that was the dynamic that politicians were waiting for to change before Ireland could truly hope to be united again. However Northern Irelands biggest trading partner is the South and as a country Northern Ireland can't afford to lose that. You now have a situation where Southern Ireland passport applications from north of the border are at an all time high and it isn't just Catholics applying for them, protestants are too. If we end up coming out of the common market as well as the EU I would think a united Ireland is almost inevitable as there will be a hunger to do that from both sides of the religious divide as economics will take the pivotal role in Northern Irelands future over religion and loyalism to the crown. Especially in the border counties, which is pretty much all of them.

Would the south now want it?
It dropped it's constitutional claim years ago.
Maybe they'll want a North independent from the UK and the Republic which is part of the EU with the Euro as currency!!

 

[skybluetony176]

Would the south now want it?
It dropped it's constitutional claim years ago.
Maybe they'll want a North independent from the UK and the Republic which is part of the EU with the Euro as currency!!

It's possible I guess. But it would certainly be a vote winner in the south if a party did return to it's claim of the North. My own opinion was that it would always be the dynamics of the population split that would cause Ireland to unite, indeed my maternal grandmother was a very black woman and had twelve children mainly because in her words she wasn't going to be outbred by Catholics intent on making Ireland united. Truth is she was of a dying breed, the current generations are alot more relaxed about it all once you get out of certain parts of Northern Ireland. I have catholic cousins, a catholic aunt and many of my protestant cousins are married to Catholics and the majority of them are raising their children under the Catholic faith. Something almost unthinkable in my family just 20-30 years ago. Things are changing in Northern Ireland and sections of the protestant community won't be against a united Ireland as much as generations gone by. Especially if it makes economical sense.

 

[mrtrench]

I called him left of centre, that is debatable, and indeed is debated.
But when certain politicians wanted Keynesian economic policies implemented to see us out of austerity they were shot down in flames.

Entirely because that option had been denied to the Coalition by Gordon Brown's debt spree.

 

[Astute]

it's not wrong just selective, there's literally 2 quotes in that article from the whole report.

The proper thing is here:
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2016/CAR070816A.htm

But then again, what do you expect from readers of the daily mail

Selective?

I take it you was hoping that nobody would read it. At best each section goes on about needing change and quickly. There is a lot more wrong with the EU than right. But those with a finger in the pie want to persevere for as long as they can without change.

 

[Astute]

It's possible I guess. But it would certainly be a vote winner in the south if a party did return to it's claim of the North. My own opinion was that it would always be the dynamics of the population split that would cause Ireland to unite, indeed my maternal grandmother was a very black woman and had twelve children mainly because in her words she wasn't going to be outbred by Catholics intent on making Ireland united. Truth is she was of a dying breed, the current generations are alot more relaxed about it all once you get out of certain parts of Northern Ireland. I have catholic cousins, a catholic aunt and many of my protestant cousins are married to Catholics and the majority of them are raising their children under the Catholic faith. Something almost unthinkable in my family just 20-30 years ago. Things are changing in Northern Ireland and sections of the protestant community won't be against a united Ireland as much as generations gone by. Especially if it makes economical sense.

All good news for you if NI go for Independence. You wouldn't have to go somewhere as stupid as New Zealand to get out of the UK which you say is heading into deep recession.

You said our stock market was crashing. Last week was the best week for 8 years in the FTSE 100. It is above where it was where you said it was crashing. Now you pretend that you know that we are having a currency crash.

One last point. I can't believe that you haven't tried blaming SISU for any of it yet

 

[SkyblueBazza]

THIS!!!


You'll need to set 10mins aside btw

...onwards & upwards PUSB

 

[Grendel]

Because the Provence of Ulster had the highest concentration of Irish protestants anywhere in Ireland and as a community they swore allegiance to the crown and remained part of the UK. The catholic to protestant dynamics has been changing for decades and at some point Catholics will outnumber protestants and I think that was the dynamic that politicians were waiting for to change before Ireland could truly hope to be united again. However Northern Irelands biggest trading partner is the South and as a country Northern Ireland can't afford to lose that. You now have a situation where Southern Ireland passport applications from north of the border are at an all time high and it isn't just Catholics applying for them, protestants are too. If we end up coming out of the common market as well as the EU I would think a united Ireland is almost inevitable as there will be a hunger to do that from both sides of the religious divide as economics will take the pivotal role in Northern Irelands future over religion and loyalism to the crown. Especially in the border counties, which is pretty much all of them.

If northern island left the UK do you think it would have any negative impact on the uk economy at all? Frankly they've been hanging into to us for years. If they have a referendum and decide to join the euro rabble then so be it. It wouldn't cause a ripple on an economic argument at all and at least the IRA worshipping Mr Corbyn may at last have a smile on his face.

 

[Grendel]

All good news for you if NI go for Independence. You wouldn't have to go somewhere as stupid as New Zealand to get out of the UK which you say is heading into deep recession.

You said our stock market was crashing. Last week was the best week for 8 years in the FTSE 100. It is above where it was where you said it was crashing. Now you pretend that you know that we are having a currency crash.

One last point. I can't believe that you haven't tried blaming SISU for any of it yet

I'm still waiting for Kiwi Tony to explain how the company he works for has to prove it's products higher when the currency impacts of exports at least match the cost of materials imported from Europe.

He seems very reticent

 

[mrtrench]

I'm still waiting for Kiwi Tony to explain how the company he works for has to prove it's products higher when the currency impacts of exports at least match the cost of materials imported from Europe.

He seems very reticent

Easy, they sell at a loss.

 

[clint van damme]

Selective?

I take it you was hoping that nobody would read it. At best each section goes on about needing change and quickly. There is a lot more wrong with the EU than right. But those with a finger in the pie want to persevere for as long as they can without change.

Selective?

I take it you was hoping that nobody would read it. At best each section goes on about needing change and quickly. There is a lot more wrong with the EU than right. But those with a finger in the pie want to persevere for as long as they can without change.

why would I post the link if I didn't want people to read it?

Better to have access to the actual report than some pathetic 2 quote piece in a rag like the mail.

 

[Astute]

why would I post the link if I didn't want people to read it?

Better to have access to the actual report than some pathetic 2 quote piece in a rag like the mail.

You made out that they only quoted a couple of parts of it just to pick and choose the worse news for the EU. It is just about all bad news for the EU unless they change a lot and very quickly.

If the Daily Mail would have mentioned all the points that they could have you would have been crying about them being biased. But their piece was about a couple of points so you call them selective.

So you call the Mail a rag. What intellectual papers do you read?

 

[Astute]

Easy, they sell at a loss.

It was when he showed that he didn't have a clue.

Because of the change in the exchange rate unit price would have gone up slightly to make but selling price up much more. Yet was a disaster for the company

 

[clint van damme]

I didn't make out anything. I pointed to the fact there were only 2 quotes in the mail and linked the whole report. The mail is a shite paper in my opinion
Nothing will change that. I read the independent and guardian. Neither of which is without fault. Particularly the independent of late though it does have 2 excellent middle east correspodents.

 

[Astute]

I didn't make out anything. I pointed to the fact there were only 2 quotes in the mail and linked the whole report. The mail is a shite paper in my opinion

So what was your point in saying that they only quoted two parts then? None of it looks good for the EU.

So are you saying that if you quote any news you have to mention all of it from now?

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm still waiting for Kiwi Tony to explain how the company he works for has to prove it's products higher when the currency impacts of exports at least match the cost of materials imported from Europe.

He seems very reticent

See, this proves exactly what an idiot you are. I've explained it already. The product we make and sell is highly reliant on raw materials imported into the UK. Go on the LME's website and see what currency metals are traded in. I'll give you a clue, it isn't the pound. This means that metals being bought into the country are more expensive when the pound is devalued to the dollar.

So any supposed benefit of the pound crashing for exports is outweighed by the increased cost of raw materials meaning that we have to increase our selling prices.

 

[skybluetony176]

It was when he showed that he didn't have a clue.

Because of the change in the exchange rate unit price would have gone up slightly to make but selling price up much more. Yet was a disaster for the company

That's not even what I said you thick fuck.

 

[Grendel]

See, this proves exactly what an idiot you are. I've explained it already. The product we make and sell is highly reliant on raw materials imported into the UK. Go on the LME's website and see what currency metals are traded in. I'll give you a clue, it isn't the pound. This means that metals being bought into the country are more expensive when the pound is devalued to the dollar.

So any supposed benefit of the pound crashing for exports is outweighed by the increased cost of raw materials meaning that we have to increase our selling prices.

But you quoted a price increase that matched the currency fx gain from your selling price. How much has the raw material price increased by and which country is your main export route of the finished product Tony??

 

[skybluetony176]

If northern island left the UK do you think it would have any negative impact on the uk economy at all? Frankly they've been hanging into to us for years. If they have a referendum and decide to join the euro rabble then so be it. It wouldn't cause a ripple on an economic argument at all and at least the IRA worshipping Mr Corbyn may at last have a smile on his face.

Northern Ireland has a better GDP per capita than parts of England and Wales. Maybe we should cut Wales free as they're dragging us down? Or North East England perhaps?

 

[Astute]

See, this proves exactly what an idiot you are. I've explained it already. The product we make and sell is highly reliant on raw materials imported into the UK. Go on the LME's website and see what currency metals are traded in. I'll give you a clue, it isn't the pound. This means that metals being bought into the country are more expensive when the pound is devalued to the dollar.

So any supposed benefit of the pound crashing for exports is outweighed by the increased cost of raw materials meaning that we have to increase our selling prices.

You said part of what your company makes comes from the EU.

Most companies are after a selling price of over 20% more than it costs to produce.

Staff costs will be the same.

So let us be generous and say 25% of costs will go up by 10%.

So out of every £100 £80 of it is production costs. 25% of it is £20. 10% extra is £22. So it costs £82 to produce. But £100 selling price plus 10% is £110. So profit has gone up in means terms from £20 to £28.

Shit they will soon go to the wall with all them extra profits

You are the thick fuck you accuse me of being. It is currency strengthening that reduces profits. That is why countries devalue their currencies when things are not going well. That is why most countries in the EU will never recover.

 

[skybluetony176]

But you quoted a price increase that matched the currency fx gain from your selling price. How much has the raw material price increased by and which country is your main export route of the finished product Tony??

The first price increase we've received was for a nickel based component and that so far has only increased 5% but we have been told in no uncertain terms that if the pound remains at current levels or drops further more price increases will come. This 5% is one product. The major metal we use and is copper and when estimating we have to consider the raw material costs based on the dollar price quoted on the LME and convert that into pounds.

We sell all around the world but also do good business in the UK so when maintaining the national grid becomes more expensive and the cost of that is added to your energy bills along with the increased cost of generation as gas (another commodity traded in dollars) has also gone up you know why.

 

[fernandopartridge]

You said part of what your company makes comes from the EU.

Most companies are after a selling price of over 20% more than it costs to produce.

Staff costs will be the same.

So let us be generous and say 25% of costs will go up by 10%.

So out of every £100 £80 of it is production costs. 25% of it is £20. 10% extra is £22. So it costs £82 to produce. But £100 selling price plus 10% is £110. So profit has gone up in means terms from £20 to £28.

Shit they will soon go to the wall with all them extra profits

You are the thick fuck you accuse me of being. It is currency strengthening that reduces profits. That is why countries devalue their currencies when things are not going well. That is why most countries in the EU will never recover.

It depends who you export to. If you're buying in dollars and selling in euros you won't be doing as well as you were a few weeks back as the relative decline in the strength of the £ is far greater on the dollar side.

 

[skybluetony176]

You said part of what your company makes comes from the EU.

Most companies are after a selling price of over 20% more than it costs to produce.

Staff costs will be the same.

So let us be generous and say 25% of costs will go up by 10%.

So out of every £100 £80 of it is production costs. 25% of it is £20. 10% extra is £22. So it costs £82 to produce. But £100 selling price plus 10% is £110. So profit has gone up in means terms from £20 to £28.

Shit they will soon go to the wall with all them extra profits

You are the thick fuck you accuse me of being. It is currency strengthening that reduces profits. That is why countries devalue their currencies when things are not going well. That is why most countries in the EU will never recover.

The raw materials for components are mined all around the world and are traded in dollars. Like I've already told the other thick fuck try looking on the LME's website and seeing what currency metals are traded in.

 

[Astute]

It depends who you export to. If you're buying in dollars and selling in euros you won't be doing as well as you were a few weeks back as the relative decline in the strength of the £ is far greater on the dollar side.

But doing better on both counts. Yet all he can see is trouble while our currency is weak. After all he has had much joy in telling us that the £ has crashed against every currency. Hopefully one day he will realise that a strengthening £ will do damage to profits not a weakening one. It makes him look as thick as you have said several times before.