The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (129 Viewers)

[martcov]

You say democracy is voting in MEP members and letting them get on with it. But in the UK democracy is voting in MP's and questioning what they should be getting on with.

So which one is it?

Letting the MPs decide on the final deal. And not letting the government sneak things through without a vote.

 

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[Astute]

Letting the MPs decide on the final deal. And not letting the government sneak things through without a vote.

But you say it is OK for the EU to do the same.

I said they should all forget about party politics and sort it between themselves. All parties are split over the matter. And I have said so countless times. Sort it before any deal. Be united. Do what is best for the UK.

You just want anything that could fuck up Brexit.

 

[Astute]

I haven't changed my mind about hard Brexit being a terrible scenario, but I think what Davis was trying to do is worse and I didn't anticipate a minister trying to pull a stunt like that.
I still don't believe this will lead to a hard Brexit or a no Brexit but we'll see.
I still want us to leave, not because I think it's the right think to do but because I think the result of the referendum should be respected.

It's not about point scoring, it's about maintaining sovereignty, something which many leave voters said was one of the main reasons for the leave vote. You can't bang on about sovereignty but then criticise it when it swings into action like the other night which is what many are doing.

I agree with just about everything except for the hard Brexit if a deal is stopped?

So what would happen if a deal is stopped? Would the EU offer more? Don't think so.

 

[martcov]

But you say it is OK for the EU to do the same.

I said they should all forget about party politics and sort it between themselves. All parties are split over the matter. And I have said so countless times. Sort it before any deal. Be united. Do what is best for the UK.

You just want anything that could fuck up Brexit.

Trying to sneak things through could cause a backlash and yes, it could fuck up Brexit.

In what way do I want the EU to sneak things through? I am for the plan to give MEPs more power and to make a second chamber more transparent and democratic as a control on the EU parliament. The opposite of yourself who wants the veto to override votes.

 

[clint van damme]

I think we will be in for some severe hardship if we have a hard Brexit, I'm hopeful/confident that won't happen, but if it does it will right itself eventually.

If we allow ministers to bypass Parliament it could be a slippery slope that we never reverse.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

He’s elected to serve his constituents not promote ideological self interest.

And it's not like his constituents haven't known what he stands for over the years.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Many Labour voters will only ever vote Labour. Many Tory voters will only ever vote Tory. Many Labour voters would never vote Tory whatever. Many Tory voters would never vote Labour whatever. You then have millions of floating voters. Labour and Tories are in a mess over Brexit.

So where are these votes going to go?

Lib Dems...

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I haven't changed my mind about hard Brexit being a terrible scenario

Currently, I feel we're seeing why it's a terrible scenario. Parliament is there as much to moderate the government and stop it ballsing everything up and causing a catastrophe, rather than government acting like a dictatorship. Now parliament can moderate the government, we might (if we're lucky!) see a more professional and focussed edge to negotiations.

 

[skybluetony176]

I think we will be in for some severe hardship if we have a hard Brexit, I'm hopeful/confident that won't happen, but if it does it will right itself eventually.

If we allow ministers to bypass Parliament it could be a slippery slope that we never reverse.

The sovereignty of parliament should have been the backbone of brexit and brexit negotiations. All TM has done by trying to undermine that is weaken our position through her own inevitable humiliation. She’s allowed herself to become a prime minister of climb down and the fact that she’s repeatedly set herself up for a fall is flabbergasting. It started with the NI debacle, then the ill advised decision to call a general election when she already had a majority and then failing to use the strength of our democracy forcing one embarrassing vote in Parliament and if I understand correctly another is to follow next week on the leave date.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The sovereignty of parliament should have been the backbone of brexit and brexit negotiations. All TM has done by trying to undermine that is weaken our position through her own inevitable humiliation. She’s allowed herself to become a prime minister of climb down and the fact that she’s repeatedly set herself up for a fall is flabbergasting. It started with the NI debacle, then the ill advised decision to call a general election when she already had a majority and then failing to use the strength of our democracy forcing one embarrassing vote in Parliament and if I understand correctly another is to follow next week on the leave date.

I'll give you a like for the majority of that, but actually I think the general election call was sensible. Of course it didn't go as she hoped, but it was the right thing to do to try and get a firmer mandate. As it turned out I also feel it's worked out well, because it stops government steamrollering everything through regardless of its merits or otherwise.

 

[Astute]

Lib Dems...

They were finished after joining the Tories. My wife always voted for them. But never again. She is like me and will never vote Tory. But she has a problem with voting for Labour.

But if they got together and distanced themselves from the Tory days they would have a chance.

 

[clint van damme]

The sovereignty of parliament should have been the backbone of brexit and brexit negotiations. All TM has done by trying to undermine that is weaken our position through her own inevitable humiliation. She’s allowed herself to become a prime minister of climb down and the fact that she’s repeatedly set herself up for a fall is flabbergasting. It started with the NI debacle, then the ill advised decision to call a general election when she already had a majority and then failing to use the strength of our democracy forcing one embarrassing vote in Parliament and if I understand correctly another is to follow next week on the leave date.

I would add not sacking Davis after his lies were exposed last week showed real weakness. If it was you or I we would have been out on our ears. She would possibly have avoided the vote the other evening.

 

[clint van damme]

They were finished after joining the Tories. My wife always voted for them. But never again. She is like me and will never vote Tory. But she has a problem with voting for Labour.

But if they got together and distanced themselves from the Tory days they would have a chance.

I think we'll see a resurgence from them, may take a few years but I think they probably have the clearest agenda regarding the EU and I think that will resonate with some people, especially younger people..
I was disgusted with their time in coalition as well. But they say a week is a long time in politics and that was now a few years ago.

 

[Grendel]

Quote me where I agree with anything he says or does.

Lib Dems...

Yes Mr Euro who no doubt in a coalition for the promise of a ministers salary will once again drop any principal he pretends to have.

Lin dems are the grubbiest politicians of the lot.

 

[martcov]

Yes Mr Euro who no doubt in a coalition for the promise of a ministers salary will once again drop any principal he pretends to have.

Lin dems are the grubbiest politicians of the lot.

Looks like you couldn’t find a quote from me supporting Tusk‘s actions in Poland...... as I said, there aren’t any..

 

[Grendel]

Looks like you couldn’t find a quote from me supporting Tusk‘s actions in Poland...... as I said, there aren’t any..

No but there is one where you support him as one of the presidents for the EU and that you would trust and prefer him to hen current British prime minister. Which is what I was referring to.

Do you actually think that man is fit for office?

 

[martcov]

No but there is one where you support him as one of the presidents for the EU and that you would trust and prefer him to hen current British prime minister. Which is what I was referring to.

Do you actually think that man is fit for office?

No. I don’t remember that. I actually said I prefer the idea of either merging the European Council with the commission, or making it a part of a second chamber. Either way Tusk would be out of a job.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It has come to my attention that a large percentage of the 309 MPs who voted for Dominic Grieves amendment yesterday weren't informed enough about their decision, and as a democrat I believe the vote should be held again.

Hopefully this time, we will get the result we were after.

 

[Kingokings204]

It has come to my attention that a large percentage of the 309 MPs who voted for Dominic Grieves amendment yesterday weren't informed enough about their decision, and as a democrat I believe the vote should be held again.

Hopefully this time, we will get the result we were after.

They didn’t know what they were voting for.

They are thick and stupid.

Wasn’t a big enough majority.

That’s right isn’t it?

 

[clint van damme]

It has come to my attention that a large percentage of the 309 MPs who voted for Dominic Grieves amendment yesterday weren't informed enough about their decision, and as a democrat I believe the vote should be held again.

Hopefully this time, we will get the result we were after.

you're trying to be clever but you're making yourself look stupid mate.
Everyone was aware of exactly what Davis was upto. Not everyone was aware of every aspect of Brexit and anyone who says they were is a liar.

I accept the result, as someone on here pointed out, not everyone who votes in a general election is aware of all the nuances so Brexit wasn't unusual in that repsect but don't try to make out the referendum and the veto vote were anything alike because you'll just end up looking like an idiot.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Plenty of chance to overturn an MPs voting preferences anyway. If you're not happy with the voting decisions they make and you feel your MP's not capable of making an informed choice, there's something that can be done...

 

[Grendel]

Plenty of chance to overturn an MPs voting preferences anyway. If you're not happy with the voting decisions they make and you feel your MP's not capable of making an informed choice, there's something that can be done...

Indeed as was shown at the last general election when over 90% of the public rejected a manifesto pledge of a second referendum

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Indeed as was shown at the last general election when over 90% of the public rejected a manifesto pledge of a second referendum

If only it had been a single issue election, eh. According to your earlier post, nobody would trust the Lib Dems to back up that promise anyway.

 

[martcov]

It has come to my attention that a large percentage of the 309 MPs who voted for Dominic Grieves amendment yesterday weren't informed enough about their decision, and as a democrat I believe the vote should be held again.

Hopefully this time, we will get the result we were after.

I suspect that MPs are better informed than postal workers in Chatham and potatoe pickers in Boston. Anyway it is no secret that we have parliamentary democracy. Just that some people forgot that when we had an advisory referendum.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

you're trying to be clever but you're making yourself look stupid mate.
Everyone was aware of exactly what Davis was upto. Not everyone was aware of every aspect of Brexit and anyone who says they were is a liar.

I accept the result, as someone on here pointed out, not everyone who votes in a general election is aware of all the nuances so Brexit wasn't unusual in that repsect but don't try to make out the referendum and the veto vote were anything alike because you'll just end up looking like an idiot.

You do realise my comments were entirely tongue in cheek don't you? It might be my fault in fairness, I do often find you don't get my humour so i'll try and not be so dry and sarcastic in future.

My point was, those kind of comments were received and still are received by leavers every day. As you have pointed out, they are idiotic.

 

[martcov]

They didn’t know what they were voting for.

They are thick and stupid.

Wasn’t a big enough majority.

That’s right isn’t it?

1 and 3 are correct. 2. Some were thick and stupid.

 

[martcov]

You do realise my comments were entirely tongue in cheek don't you? It might be my fault in fairness, I do often find you don't get my humour so i'll try and not be so dry and sarcastic in future.

My point was, those kind of comments were received and still are received by leavers every day. As you have pointed out, they are idiotic.

On the other side there are death threats and Lynch mob headlines against people who dare to speak out against this mess.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I suspect that MPs are better informed than postal workers in Chatham and potatoe pickers in Boston. Anyway it is no secret that we have parliamentary democracy. Just that some people forgot that when we had an advisory referendum.

See my last post.

Plus 'advisory' referendum makes you sound like a loser. Drop it. If the result had gone the other way around you wouldn't have heard people saying that.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

On the other side there are death threats and Lynch mob headlines against people who dare to speak out against this mess.

My heart bleeds.

They know exactly what they are doing and I have very little sympathy to be honest.

Remember, the arrogance, bullying, and harassment was a big factor in what pushed some people to vote leave. A few words the other way doesn't mitigate that, even if that isn't right either.

 

[Grendel]

If only it had been a single issue election, eh. According to your earlier post, nobody would trust the Lib Dems to back up that promise anyway.

Well the Lib Dems made hay with the youth vote when they threw the old free Student life out there. Then that went sour so they switched to dear old anti Euro Jezza when he chucked the same freebie out there.

Principals eh?

 

[clint van damme]

You do realise my comments were entirely tongue in cheek don't you? It might be my fault in fairness, I do often find you don't get my humour so i'll try and not be so dry and sarcastic in future.

My point was, those kind of comments were received and still are received by leavers every day. As you have pointed out, they are idiotic.

you carry on, think of the wider audience!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Well the Lib Dems made hay with the youth vote when they threw the old free Student life out there. Then that went sour so they switched to dear old anti Euro Jezza when he chucked the same freebie out there.

Principals eh?

Won't find me arguing ref: the student fees fiasco, although every opposition has been opposed to it until they come into power. They were rather naive in thinking it wouldn't count against them however.

Anyway, you seem to be saying that their vote at the last election wasn't the sole pro-EU vote out there, as they can't be trusted. I'd partly agree. Come the next election however, political ground may shift once more... although of course it won't be a single issue election unless something truly momentous ref: EU happens.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

you carry on, think of the wider audience!

Bugger me, he's playing to a Grendel, KoK audience.

It'd be like a Bernard Manning gig in his later years.

 

[Grendel]

Bugger me, he's playing to a Grendel, KoK audience.

It'd be like a Bernard Manning gig in his later years.

Never saw you standing up against the Labour Party mysoginy against Jess Phillips or the clear anti Semitic traits of Naz Shah and the odious Livingstone.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Never saw you standing up against the Labour Party mysoginy against Jess Phillips or the clear anti Semitic traits of Naz Shah and the odious Livingstone.

Eh? Will happily say Livingstone is mad. He's still suspended, of course.

Not like you to swerve something where you've been outmaneuvered however...