Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (117 Viewers)

[Astute]

Until the left starts accepting responsibility for their losses they have no hope of not losing. That’s why I’m upset. Comfort blankets about stupid voters and nasty Tories and evil press barons may make you feel good but they don’t lead to a left wing government.

Spot on. And the point I normally get hammered for when I make it.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Look back. Shmmeee said about reducing poverty and improving access to education. That is what I replied to because nobody said a thing as usual.

And this goes to the next point I made. Always go on full attack on the Tories but ignore what is wrong with Labour. And then pretend there is nothing wrong and make anti Labour accusations if anyone mentions it.

Don't we want to appeal to the floating voters?

On the contrary I don’t see much ignorance of the problems here and I was calling for Corbyn’s head for months before the election and again when he agreed to it. Only Ian thought Labour would win and I remember predicting a landslide along with a few others.

There is little denying that Labour under Blair poured lots of badly needed funding into schools

 

[Grendel]

While Corbyn should get slated he was on the receiving end of an overwhelming number of false or deliberately misleading articles and hit pieces. Think that has been independently verified

He attracted more votes than Blair in the May contest?

 

[wingy]

Although there were/are failings in explaining things like immigration it's not like there haven't been attempts to do so. But if people don't want to listen you can't make them. If you go into a detailed analysis of immigration most people's eyes would glaze over and they'd just stop paying attention. It doesn't fit in with their simple world view and so just dismiss it as 'bleeding heart liberals" making excuses.

It doesn't help when you've had a govt and referendum campaign that plays to that thinking rather than the facts. They get elected because they just go along with the popular opinion rather than actually trying to educate people on the finer points.

"The superior man knows what is right. the inferior man knows what will sell"

But it was growth

Growth at all costs

Without provision of required expansion in infrastructure.
Depression on wages,pitting families against houses of multiple occupation.
No doubt there were some in Westminster who happily enriched their property portfolios on the basis of that.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He attracted more votes than Blair in the May contest?

He had only been in post for two years and had pledged to honour the referendum result. Make your mind up G you keep using 2017 as a for and against for Jezza-probably because you called it about as wrong as humanly possible

 

[fernandopartridge]

Explain is the wrong word maybe. Here, top voter concerns 2019:

Concern: Crime - Tory campaign: “20,000 new police officers” - Labour campaign: nothing in their headline policies

Concern: Brexit resolution - Tory campaign: “Get Brexit Done” - Labour campaign: “6 month delay minimum while we organise a second referendum”

Concern: NHS - Tory campaign: “40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses” - Labour campaign: “increase health budget by 4.8% & some easily denied conspiracy theory about Trump buying the NHS”

See the difference? And I had to google Labours stuff and not the Tories. And I’m a Labour member!

Agree with this, Labour needs to be a lot more focused on the policy intention and go with that rather than going with the underlying detail. Then again, you've got to remember that this isn't a level playing field, what Tories say is generally taken by the media at face value whereas Labour is always subject to more scrutiny.

 

[Ian1779]

On the contrary I don’t see much ignorance of the problems here and I was calling for Corbyn’s head for months before the election and again when he agreed to it. Only Ian thought Labour would win and I remember predicting a landslide along with a few others.

There is little denying that Labour under Blair poured lots of badly needed funding into schools

I never said they would win - I said the best case scenario was to stop Boris getting a majority. We never could have won outright by not making massive gains back in Scotland.

 

[Grendel]

He had only been in post for two years and had pledged to honour the referendum result. Make your mind up G you keep using 2017 as a for and against for Jezza-probably because you called it about as wrong as humanly possible

I mention it as it blows apart the argument the right wing media can control elections. I think Mr Corbyns terrorist affiliations were well known then. He didn’t crash and burn from that position due the media he crashed and burned because he looked jaded defeated and useless

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I mention it as it blows apart the argument the right wing media can control elections. I think Mr Corbyns terrorist affiliations were well known then. He didn’t crash and burn from that position due the media he crashed and burned because he looked jaded defeated and useless

In case it escaped you Theresa May still won even more votes despite being a disaster at PR and with an awful manifesto. Nobody is pinning it all on one or the other but to deny the media has an influence is also denying reality

 

[Ian1779]

I mention it as it blows apart the argument the right wing media can control elections. I think Mr Corbyns terrorist affiliations were well known then. He didn’t crash and burn from that position due the media he crashed and burned because he looked jaded defeated and useless

He fucked Brexit first and foremost from that position.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Explain is the wrong word maybe. Here, top voter concerns 2019:

Concern: Crime - Tory campaign: “20,000 new police officers” - Labour campaign: nothing in their headline policies

Concern: Brexit resolution - Tory campaign: “Get Brexit Done” - Labour campaign: “6 month delay minimum while we organise a second referendum”

Concern: NHS - Tory campaign: “40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses” - Labour campaign: “increase health budget by 4.8% & some easily denied conspiracy theory about Trump buying the NHS”

See the difference? And I had to google Labours stuff and not the Tories. And I’m a Labour member!

Yep. As you say explain is not the right word. Spell out a simple slogan or 'target' for those that never bother to read the manifestos and make sure they take parts of the policy that appeal to that demographic (as a general rule tough on crime, immigration, fund education, NHS etc.). So for example you say "more police officers/customs officials" or "tougher sentences/visa requirements" etc without going into detail which may actually not really result in a reduction in crime/immigration.

Then for your more conscientious voter you put the detail in the manifesto for them to mull over. Like extra reading at uni.

 

[chiefdave]

Until the left starts accepting responsibility for their losses they have no hope of not losing. That’s why I’m upset. Comfort blankets about stupid voters and nasty Tories and evil press barons may make you feel good but they don’t lead to a left wing government.

You've perfectly illustrated my point. You say voters intelligence shouldn't be questioned yet you cite the likes of "20,000 new police officers" and "40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses" as reasons for the Conservatives winning. Things that were quickly and easily shown to be false.

You say the media has little influence yet they repeated these and similar soundbites without question while tearing apart every word uttered by Corbyn.

Its beyond me why so many on the left want to single out one issue. Why can't it be 'all of the above'? Seem to be getting themselves up for failure again next time round.

 

[chiefdave]

Raab has just said in PMQs "It’s far too early to make international comparisons".

Here's a chart the government releases every day

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Raab has just said in PMQs "It’s far too early to make international comparisons".

Here's a chart the government releases every day

View attachment 14965

Until this started Boris probably thought COBRA was served by the pint

 

[fernandopartridge]

Raab has just said in PMQs "It’s far too early to make international comparisons".

Here's a chart the government releases every day

View attachment 14965

Has Raab ever been seen in the same room as CCFCSteve?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You've perfectly illustrated my point. You say voters intelligence shouldn't be questioned yet you cite the likes of "20,000 new police officers" and "40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses" as reasons for the Conservatives winning. Things that were quickly and easily shown to be false.

You say the media has little influence yet they repeated these and similar soundbites without question while tearing apart every word uttered by Corbyn.

Its beyond me why so many on the left want to single out one issue. Why can't it be 'all of the above'? Seem to be getting themselves up for failure again next time round.

Hail to the Chief

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I'll tell you exactly what is wrong. Labour voters look at what is wrong with the opposition but ignore what is wrong with their own party. Look at when a few of us were saying the last GE was going to be a landslide. We were wrong and anti Labour. But now it is over those who constantly had digs at us for saying what was wrong now say they could see what was wrong.

All this led to such an inept government being voted in.

Whereas the Tories are renowned for owning up to their errors?

They deflect with whataboutery (Labour anti-semitism when they've got a much larger problem themselves) Corbyn and Russia but where's the Russia report?

What the Tories do is when the pressure gets too much is get rid of the leader and this 'wipes the slate clean'. All in the past, nothing to see here. The carry on as before. Rinse and repeat.

Labours do indeed have a failure to address problems and what they do wrong, and they need to take plays from the Tory handbook in terms of campaigning.

But don't make out that anyone other party looks at their errors either. They're just far more willing to hide or deflect them.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Whereas the Tories are renowned for owning up to their errors?

They deflect with whataboutery (Labour anti-semitism when they've got a much larger problem themselves) Corbyn and Russia but where's the Russia report?

What the Tories do is when the pressure gets too much is get rid of the leader and this 'wipes the slate clean'. All in the past, nothing to see here. The carry on as before. Rinse and repeat.

Labours do indeed have a failure to address problems and what they do wrong, and they need to take plays from the Tory handbook in terms of campaigning.

But don't make out that anyone other party looks at their errors either. They're just far more willing to hide or deflect them.

We need some people well versed in the dark arts and Starmer looks like he is going to pander to the woke crowd-I'm giving him a free pass for Covid but he looks like a more well spoken Miliband so far

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Pingu looking worse for wear at PMQs

 

[Ian1779]

We need some people well versed in the dark arts and Starmer looks like he is going to pander to the woke crowd-I'm giving him a free pass for Covid but he looks like a more well spoken Miliband so far

This is what I was saying earlier. The ‘woke crowd’ from 2015 are back in the fold (the people who brought the ‘edstone’ and immigration mugs) masquerading as the ‘grown ups’

 

[Ian1779]

Pingu looking worse for wear at PMQs

I think the absence of the baying masses makes it better

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This is what I was saying earlier. The ‘woke crowd’ from 2015 are back in the fold (the people who brought the ‘edstone’ and immigration mugs) masquerading as the ‘grown ups’

Hell yeah

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think the absence of the baying masses makes it better

Let's be honest most backbenchers now are getting paid loads for doing fuck all so at least he got off his arse and in front of the PC

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

And this goes to the next point I made. Always go on full attack on the Tories but ignore what is wrong with Labour. And then pretend there is nothing wrong and make anti Labour accusations if anyone mentions it.

Don't we want to appeal to the floating voters?

Again, what do the Tories do? Go full on attack on Labour and ignore their own failings. Anti-semitism vs Islamophobia and their own anti-semitism problems? Brush their own under the carpet and slam Corbyn and Labour.

Massive budget deficits and rising debt. Problem for them all but say Labour's plans are totally unaffordable.

The Tories go on the attack just as much, if not more, than Labour do. They're just more adept at hiding or deflecting from their own issues. Whether this is partly to do with having a media that will help keep these things under the radar, better use of legal processes to prevent reporting or just keeping it in-house for the greater good of getting elected than the power struggle of Labour, where they both shoot themselves in the foot by trying to give their faction the upper hand and just end up making the party as a whole (and therefore themselves) look bad.

 

[shmmeee]

You've perfectly illustrated my point. You say voters intelligence shouldn't be questioned yet you cite the likes of "20,000 new police officers" and "40 new hospitals and 50,000 new nurses" as reasons for the Conservatives winning. Things that were quickly and easily shown to be false.

You say the media has little influence yet they repeated these and similar soundbites without question while tearing apart every word uttered by Corbyn.

Its beyond me why so many on the left want to single out one issue. Why can't it be 'all of the above'? Seem to be getting themselves up for failure again next time round.

Forget the media not repeating it, Labour didn’t repeat it! The messages were terrible and forgettable. Good messaging isn’t right wing is my point!

The media tore apart the 50,000 nurses and 40 hospitals claims as well. All that does is amplify the claims.

And Labours manifesto had a £58bn Waspi sized hole in it. There’s lots of experts who say zero carbon by 2030 is impossible. We didn’t say how we’d set prices for bringing broadband into public control.

This is exactly what I mean, conspiracy theories and whining about fairness rather than accepting we did a bad job. Even if everyone is against us why not give them less ammo? Why not make their job harder?

This is why the left loses control every time. Rank incompetence and reliance on nonsense about media bias.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

After Brexit it was said that one of the lefts biggest issues was regarding voters as stupid yet the reasons put forward for the Conservatives winning, the claims of additional police, nurses and hospitals, amount to calling voters stupid as they were so quickly and easily shown to be false.

So the issue isn't really about voter stupidity it's about how you acknowledge it.

Tories are sensible enough to know voters are stupid and play to that without saying voters are stupid.

Labour on the other hand goes "this is what we're doing and if you don't get it you're thick"

 

[David O'Day]

Can we all agree that Raab is very very very shite at PMQs

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Forget the media not repeating it, Labour didn’t repeat it! The messages were terrible and forgettable. Good messaging isn’t right wing is my point!

The media tore apart the 50,000 nurses and 40 hospitals claims as well. All that does is amplify the claims.

And Labours manifesto had a £58bn Waspi sized hole in it. There’s lots of experts who say zero carbon by 2030 is impossible. We didn’t say how we’d set prices for bringing broadband into public control.

This is exactly what I mean, conspiracy theories and whining about fairness rather than accepting we did a bad job. Even if everyone is against us why not give them less ammo? Why not make their job harder?

This is why the left loses control every time. Rank incompetence and reliance on nonsense about media bias.

To be fair shmmeee I think the more insane commitments came out as they became more desperate to take discussion away from Brexit which was never going to happen.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

But it was growth

Growth at all costs

Without provision of required expansion in infrastructure.
Depression on wages,pitting families against houses of multiple occupation.
No doubt there were some in Westminster who happily enriched their property portfolios on the basis of that.

Tories are all about growth at all costs. Economic growth. We've seen from this pandemic that we've almost certainly done poorly because rather than focus entirely on the health issue there were voices saying "but what about the economy". Johnson's speech about being willing to stay open shows that opinion was there and had plenty of traction.

As part of that growth, increasing population to bring wages down is always an easy way to go about it and immigration/moving abroad is the quickest/easiest way for that. But the thing is to have the rhetoric of 'tough on immigration' when in reality what they want is the complete opposite cos it'll enrich them.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Has Raab ever been seen in the same room as CCFCSteve?

haha...now, now Fernando !

To be fair, I’ve been clear about the reasons why I think it’s very difficult to accurately compare countries now based on current confirmed cases and deaths, as we know little about actual case numbers in various countries, future spread, reinfection etc etc.

I’ve not seen too many argue against the points made....but then again, they still carry on making the comparisons so guess they’d prefer to ignore (fair enough !). Only time will tell I guess

 

[David O'Day]

Tories are all about growth at all costs. Economic growth. We've seen from this pandemic that we've almost certainly done poorly because rather than focus entirely on the health issue there were voices saying "but what about the economy". Johnson's speech about being willing to stay open shows that opinion was there and had plenty of traction.

As part of that growth, increasing population to bring wages down is always an easy way to go about it and immigration/moving abroad is the quickest/easiest way for that. But the thing is to have the rhetoric of 'tough on immigration' when in reality what they want is the complete opposite cos it'll enrich them.

The vast majority of the population as per polling is supportive of keeping restrictions for health reasons.

Reopening the economy at this point is not a vote winning view.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

 

[Nick]

This guy still a hero because he shouts over people from the government?

 

[Grendel]

Raab has just said in PMQs "It’s far too early to make international comparisons".

Here's a chart the government releases every day

View attachment 14965

Every time they show it the caveat with a comment you can’t compare against other countries

 

[clint van damme]

This guy still a hero because he shouts over people from the government?

No. He's been spot on taking the government to task but he's wrong about this.
It is possible to agree with someone on one subject but not another.

 

[Ian1779]

This guy still a hero because he shouts over people from the government?

It’s possible for him to be completely wrong on the football (which he is) and still challenge inept ministers chatting bollocks on morning TV.