Do you want to discuss boring politics? (20 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Blair had Campbell at the heart of government who was implicit in a suspicious motive for a war and also the death of an individual who was bullied and harangued.

Blair at least had half a brain and made a vague effort to do his job properly

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Funny how Cummings pretends to be all Innocent, lets not forget he was part of it last March the twat. It's probably all lies coming from his mouth.

It's what I don't get. He's throwing himself under the bus as much as anyone else. He was a major player and advisor at this time, so whatever happened is on him too, regardless of what he says. If he thinks he shouldn't have been in that position, there was nothing stopping him saying 'No - I'm not suitable'.

Also he's doing it confirming what I've always thought. He is a bitter vile c*** who couldn't give a shit about the truth. This is all a grudge about getting sacked.

Annoyingly the govt will prob get away with it purely because it's coming from his mouth, and no-one believes a word he says. It's like he watched The Thick Of It and used it as a training manual.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It's what I don't get. He's throwing himself under the bus as much as anyone else. He was a major player and advisor at this time, so whatever happened is on him too, regardless of what he says. If he thinks he shouldn't have been in that position, there was nothing stopping him saying 'No - I'm not suitable'.

Also he's doing it confirming what I've always thought. He is a bitter vile c*** who couldn't give a shit about the truth. This is all a grudge about getting sacked.

Annoyingly the govt will prob get away with it purely because it's coming from his mouth, and no-one believes a word he says. It's like he watched The Thick Of It and used it as a training manual.

He’s going nuclear on the orders of his puppet master

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

If you substitute "IT consultant" for senior managers within the NHS that statement is accurate beyond belief!!
How these people, with absolutely no knowledge, understanding and insight into the decisions they make and how they will impact on the people and service they are in charge of stay in post is unbelievable. The way they rewrite history, glossing over the fuck up's they have initiated and learn nothing from their mistakes is endemic and becomes the 'cultural norm'.

This isn't new. It's been happening for a long, long time. And not just in the public sector.

History of CEO's periodically moving on and basically doing like the managerial merry-go-round. Turn up and say 'I've been left a mess by my predecessor' stick around for about 3 years for the pay etc then leave before anyone can turn around and say you should have it sorted by now. Next person comes in and says "I've been left a mess by my predecessor" and the circle jerk continues.

The art of management is knowing when to leave before you can be blamed.

 

[PVA]

It's what I don't get. He's throwing himself under the bus as much as anyone else. He was a major player and advisor at this time, so whatever happened is on him too, regardless of what he says. If he thinks he shouldn't have been in that position, there was nothing stopping him saying 'No - I'm not suitable'.

Also he's doing it confirming what I've always thought. He is a bitter vile c*** who couldn't give a shit about the truth. This is all a grudge about getting sacked.

Annoyingly the govt will prob get away with it purely because it's coming from his mouth, and no-one believes a word he says. It's like he watched The Thick Of It and used it as a training manual.

Whilst I agree with your overall point he is at least admitting fault and blame, which is more than Johnson and Hancock will ever do.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Whilst I agree with your overall point he is at least admitting fault and blame, which is more than Johnson and Hancock will ever do.

True. has he said much about Gove? As I'm certain he's looking to get him in to replace Boris as his next puppet since he's decided to let Carrie tell him what to do instead of Cummings.

 

[PVA]

True. has he said much about Gove? As I'm certain he's looking to get him in to replace Boris as his next puppet since he's decided to let Carrie tell him what to do instead of Cummings.

No mention of Gove. Stuck up for Sunak though.

 

[RedSalmon]

Senior leadership within the civil service is indeed key here. Now, to be clear, there are some very capable people at that level, and who justly hold their position in terms of the person's experience, aptitude, and intelligence. But (perhaps more than in the private sector) promotions at mid-manager level and above in the civil service rely as much on networking than in having in full measure these qualities or a record of delivery.

Those in higher positions but who are inept and inexperienced fall very easily for the out and out consultant bluffers, especially when these pander to held prejudices and simple beliefs. And because it's very difficult to evidence value in a non-profit organisation delivering public goods, any non-delivery or screw-ups is easy to cover up by the use of smoke and mirrors, including defection for blame

So yes, absolutely, those in headship positions (divisional directors an above) are ultimately the issue here.

Agree with every word as applicable to the NHS, but you hit on a really good point and it's the "networking". They all cover each others arse's when the shit hits the fan.

 

[shmmeee]

Blair had Campbell at the heart of government who was implicit in a suspicious motive for a war and also the death of an individual who was bullied and harangued.

Noted: don’t vote for Tony Blair next election.

 

[skybluetony176]

Noted: don’t vote for Tony Blair next election.

I think eventually Boris will be the Tories Blair. And he’d have earned it. Flag waving only gets you so far. Cool Britannia and all that.

 

[shmmeee]

I think eventually Boris will be the Tories Blair. And he’d have earned it. Flag waving only gets you so far. Cool Britannia and all that.

Boris Johnson dreams of being half the politician Blair was. Say what you like about his decisions but Blair was always across the detail of his brief. Thatcher was the Tory Blair, there are Thatcherites and Blairites in both parties still, there’ll never be Johnsonites.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Summer everyone assumed it was all ok. Ffs to be fair my family were the same

 

[skybluetony176]

Strange how Boris doesn’t want to look in the rear view mirror.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Boris Johnson dreams of being half the politician Blair was. Say what you like about his decisions but Blair was always across the detail of his brief. Thatcher was the Tory Blair, there are Thatcherites and Blairites in both parties still, there’ll never be Johnsonites.

But bollotics will always be full of complete and utter Johnsons

 

[clint van damme]

Blair had Campbell at the heart of government who was implicit in a suspicious motive for a war and also the death of an individual who was bullied and harangued.

Does that make it OK to have Cummings in such an influential role?

 

[skybluetony176]

Does that make it OK to have Cummings in such an influential role?

It’s OK, Grendull is clearly criticising Boris’ judgment.

 

[clint van damme]

Laura Kuenssberg is going to be scapegoated as well as he's just admitted her he used her as a press mouthpiece.

She hasn't done her job properly, she deserves whatever comes her way. A poor excuse for a journalist.

 

[Philosoraptor]

On the morning of 12 March, said Mr Cummings, the "national security people came in" and said "Trump wants us to join a bombing campaign in the Middle East tonight" and this "totally derailed" meetings about coronavirus.

At the same time, "the prime minister's girlfriend was going completely crackers" over stories in the press about her dog.

--

My favorite putdown so far.

 

[Ian1779]

She hasn't done her job properly, she deserves whatever comes her way. A poor excuse for a journalist.

A stretch in every sense to associate her with journalism. Secretary of State for propaganda would be more fitting.

 

[Evo1883]

Boris Johnson dreams of being half the politician Blair was. Say what you like about his decisions but Blair was always across the detail of his brief. Thatcher was the Tory Blair, there are Thatcherites and Blairites in both parties still, there’ll never be Johnsonites.

Blair was largely a very good prime minister and politician when it come to policies at home .

The man should still face charges for war crimes like any Middle East dictator would have for the same crimes .

Has there ever been a prime minister taint their legacy in such a way in history

 

[Philosoraptor]

Yep Cummings just said that in so many words that he would be prepared to pay for human guinea pig trials on for people for Covid.

Wouldn't just affect the poorest in society. No sir.

The machiavellian tendencies are crazy with him.

 

[Evo1883]

Yep Cummings just said that in so many words that he would be prepared to pay for human guinea pig trials on for people for Covid.

Wouldn't just affect the poorest in society. No sir.

The machiavellian tendencies are crazy with him.

He's basically showing traits of a psychopath

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

He's basically showing traits of a psychopath

In a surprise to virtually no-one.

 

[shmmeee]

Yep Cummings just said that in so many words that he would be prepared to pay for human guinea pig trials on for people for Covid.

Wouldn't just affect the poorest in society. No sir.

The machiavellian tendencies are crazy with him.

He’s right though. If you’re going to kill thousands or even millions indiscriminately while you go through a slower process, you’d be mad not to try and get an order of magnitude fewer volunteers to speed it up.

 

[Philosoraptor]

He’s right though. If you’re going to kill thousands or even millions indiscriminately while you go through a slower process, you’d be mad not to try and get an order of magnitude fewer volunteers to speed it up.

Seriously though, it is against everything that a commonwealth is set up for. Basic Human Rights.

 

[shmmeee]

Seriously though, it is against everything that a commonwealth is set up for. Basic Human Rights.

? I’ve only had it on in the background while I’m working so might have misheard but I thought he was talking about finding people who would volunteer and get huge payments if things went wrong. Where’s the human rights issue?

Yes poor people would be attracted to it, but that’s true about literally anything involving remuneration. We do this on a smaller scale with medical testing already, I had a mate at Uni who got paid to do testing. This is just increasing the risk/reward calculation.

 

[Philosoraptor]

? I’ve only had it on in the background while I’m working so might have misheard but I thought he was talking about finding people who would volunteer and get huge payments if things went wrong. Where’s the human rights issue?

Yes poor people would be attracted to it, but that’s true about literally anything involving remuneration. We do this on a smaller scale with medical testing already, I had a mate at Uni who got paid to do testing. This is just increasing the risk/reward calculation.

Can't really believe I need to explain this.

Show me a trail anywhere where there is a significant chance that a healthy person might die from the trial.

 

[shmmeee]

Can't really believe I need to explain this.

Show me a trail anywhere where there is a significant chance that a healthy person might die from the trial.

I do wish you wouldn’t do the riddle me this shite. Just say what your point is. I’m guessing it’s that new virus vaccines are significantly higher risk at outset than medical trials are. And yes, I know, that’s why I said the risk reward profile changes. Stopping millions of deaths is possible in a new vaccine but not normal medical tests so the reward is much higher allowing a higher risk for the same moral calculation.

 

[Philosoraptor]

I do wish you wouldn’t do the riddle me this shite. Just say what your point is. I’m guessing it’s that new virus vaccines are significantly higher risk at outset than medical trials are. And yes, I know, that’s why I said the risk reward profile changes. Stopping millions of deaths is possible in a new vaccine but not normal medical tests so the reward is much higher allowing a higher risk for the same moral calculation.

Treating Persons as Means (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

 

[shmmeee]

Treating Persons as Means (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

Again, it would be voluntary. This is a basic trolley problem but you can only ask people to step in front of the trolley instead of pulling a lever.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Again, it would be voluntary. This is a basic trolley problem but you can only ask people to step in front of the trolley instead of pulling a lever.

Seriously?

 

[CCFCSteve]

It's what I don't get. He's throwing himself under the bus as much as anyone else. He was a major player and advisor at this time, so whatever happened is on him too, regardless of what he says. If he thinks he shouldn't have been in that position, there was nothing stopping him saying 'No - I'm not suitable'.

Also he's doing it confirming what I've always thought. He is a bitter vile c*** who couldn't give a shit about the truth. This is all a grudge about getting sacked.

Annoyingly the govt will prob get away with it purely because it's coming from his mouth, and no-one believes a word he says. It's like he watched The Thick Of It and used it as a training manual.

Spot on. I think Hancock is in big trouble though (rightly, as he’s well out of this depth).

Watched quite a bit this morning, very interesting. If I get this right he’s said government was shit, civil service was shit, initial scientific advice was shit, Johnson was shit and should never be PM (even though he helped him get in the job), Hancock was double shit, Sunak was ok and he (Cummings) tried but nobody listened....but he should never have been in that role anyway

Ps I know many don’t like Hunt but he’s too good to be on back benches and we would’ve been far better having him in role than Hancock (not saying much I appreciate)

 

[Deleted member 4439]

I know many don’t like Hunt but he’s too good to be on back benches and we would’ve been far better having him in role than Hancock (not saying much I appreciate)

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Spot on. I think Hancock is in big trouble though (rightly, as he’s well out of this depth).

Watched quite a bit this morning, very interesting. If I get this right he’s said government was shit, civil service was shit, initial scientific advice was shit, Johnson was shit and should never be PM (even though he helped him get in the job), Hancock was double shit, Sunak was ok and he (Cummings) tried but nobody listened....but he should never have been in that role anyway

Ps I know many don’t like Hunt but he’s too good to be on back benches and we would’ve been far better having him in role than Hancock (not saying much I appreciate)

The fact Hunt is not considered that bad isn't great. He's still far from a great candidate - it's just how bad everybody else is. The fact he's an uber-capitalist who has written about how the NHS should be discarded and sold off in favour of a US style system should discount him from the leadership alone. He's a voice that should have a say, just not the final one.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

They are all just cunts.

Their job is to be electable and to represent the country and the people in the best way. Yet nearly none of them across any party seems to do a good job, let alone actually mean well in the first place which should be the basics.

Where is V for Vendetta when you need him.