Do you want to discuss boring politics? (25 Viewers)

Deleted member 4439 · May 26, 2021

It's the wonderful conceit that does it. You can literally see him thinking through the lies and spin. To be clear, I'm not saying this to defend Johnson and the govt in any way. Cummings is an absolute bastard, treats people like shit, and his ideas are stupid and reckless. Worse of all, he half-believes his own myth.

Pay attention to how his uses his hands and body language try to engage, in over compensation of lies and weak points.

PVA · May 26, 2021

Cityandproud87 said:
Cummings is the definition of a Rat, awful person.

He is. Everyone knew this though, so why make him such a key part of the government? It was always going to end in tears.

Sick Boy · May 26, 2021

Sky Blue Pete said:
Johnson is Teflon isn’t he

It’s all thanks to his Boris persona.

Cityandproud87 · May 26, 2021

PVA said:
He is. Everyone knew this though, so why make him such a key part of the government? It was always going to end in tears.

Boris fucked up with that one.

Sky Blue Harry H · May 26, 2021

Re: Cummings (and I confess not to have followed his antics to the nth degree) I listened too a lot of his 'espousing' this morning and one bit that hit me was his use of 'not being an expert' or 'not understanding stuff, so didn't get involved' when it suited him. Used it like a get out of jail free card. Slippery as an eel.

PVA · May 26, 2021

Cummings confirming what we all knew. That the government didn't have a fucking clue about Covid and reacted too late.

Just stated that Hancock should have been fired 15-20 times.

As slippery as Cummings is its absolutely staggering how incompetently the government handled the outbreak, and there a people that genuinely think they did a good job

PVA · May 26, 2021

Also confirms that herd immunity was the plan, which was so obvious at the time but again many people denied it.

shmmeee · May 26, 2021

chiefdave said:
Why do so many people still talk about the countries economy as if it operates the same way as your personal credit card bill?

Because like quantum physics and space time macroeconomics doesn’t make intuitive sense. You’re used to thinking in human lifetime timescales and not being able to create your own money.

shmmeee · May 26, 2021

CCFCSteve said:
Its kind of irrelevant though Faz. It’s what the public think that matters. Whatever the Tories were saying about Cummings, the Barnard castle incident damaged the government quite a bit at the time because of public perception

From memory that was peak Starmer polling time

Ian Dunt (sorry for triggering a few) made a nice observation that there’s a certain poetry about Cummings weaponising falsehoods and now being unable to hurt his opponent because he weaponised falsehoods.

PVA · May 26, 2021

This shit is incredible. The incompetence is even worse than I feared.

Tweets from Ian Dunt:

Dep Cabinet secretary walks in and says official in charge of coordinating with Dept for Health. He said: "I've been told for years there was a whole plan for this. There is no plan. We're in huge trouble."

The Dep Cab sec added: "I think we are absolutely fucked. This country is heading for disaster. We're going to kill thousands of people."

Jesus Christ. He says on the 12th, the Cabinet Secretary was telling the PM that they had a herd immunity plan "like the old chickenpox parties".

This is March 12th. They'd had weeks by this stage, of seeing what happened in China, of seeing what was happening in Italy. And that's the conversation they were having. About chickenpox parties.

When we talk about when we mention competence in government, about having people in charge who have the intellectual and emotional suitability for the role. This is what it means. This is what happens when you decide that kind of shit doesn't matter.

Deleted member 4439 · May 26, 2021

Sky Blue Harry H said:
Re: Cummings (and I confess not to have followed his antics to the nth degree) I listened too a lot of his 'espousing' this morning and one bit that hit me was his use of 'not being an expert' or 'not understanding stuff, so didn't get involved' when it suited him. Used it like a get out of jail free card. Slippery as an eel.

He is the epitome of the very worst kind of (IT) consultant. He enters a building with a grand plan constructed to his ill-grounded vision and beliefs, spends the first half of his tenancy connecting to the powerbase to force through badly conceived and reckless ideas that have no consideration for the art of the possible against known technical, security and policy considerations and standards, then spends the second half engaged in deflection of blame, before finally leaving and then updating his LinkedIn profile with how he transformed the entire organisation.

Others have done the same, but Cummings' MO is a sight to behold, and the effect on individuals left in his wake is not good at all.

PVA · May 26, 2021

Hancock getting an absolute pasting.

I wonder if he regrets backing Cummings over Barnard Castle now?

clint van damme · May 26, 2021

dubed said:
It's the wonderful conceit that does it. You can literally see him thinking through the lies and spin. To be clear, I'm not saying this to defend Johnson and the govt in any way. Cummings is an absolute bastard, treats people like shit, and his ideas are stupid and reckless. Worse of all, he half-believes his own myth.

Pay attention to how his uses his hands and body language try to engage, in over compensation of lies and weak points.

And yet our PM had him at the heart of government and his likely successor will give him even more ofa free hand.

PVA · May 26, 2021

clint van damme said:
And yet our PM had him at the heart of government and his likely successor will give him even more ofa free hand.

He even says himself he shouldn't have been there!

Grendel · May 26, 2021

clint van damme said:
And yet our PM had him at the heart of government and his likely successor will give him even more ofa free hand.

Blair had Campbell at the heart of government who was implicit in a suspicious motive for a war and also the death of an individual who was bullied and harangued.

Cityandproud87 · May 26, 2021

Funny how Cummings pretends to be all Innocent, lets not forget he was part of it last March the twat. It's probably all lies coming from his mouth.

David O'Day · May 26, 2021

Laura Kuenssberg is going to be scapegoated as well as he's just admitted her he used her as a press mouthpiece.

Cityandproud87 · May 26, 2021

David O'Day said:
Laura Kuenssberg is going to be scapegoated as well as he's just admitted her he used her as a press mouthpiece.

Surprised we haven't had more from you in this thread O'Drivel.

RedSalmon · May 26, 2021

dubed said:
He is the epitome of the very worst kind of (IT) consultant. He enters a building with a grand plan constructed to his ill-grounded vision and beliefs, spends the first half of his tenancy connecting to the powerbase to force through badly conceived and reckless ideas that have no consideration for the art of the possible against known technical, security and policy considerations and standards, then spends the second half engaged in deflection of blame, before finally leaving and then updating his LinkedIn profile with how he transformed the entire organisation.

Others have done the same, but Cummings' MO is a sight to behold, and the effect on individuals left in his wake is not good at all.

If you substitute "IT consultant" for senior managers within the NHS that statement is accurate beyond belief!!
How these people, with absolutely no knowledge, understanding and insight into the decisions they make and how they will impact on the people and service they are in charge of stay in post is unbelievable. The way they rewrite history, glossing over the fuck up's they have initiated and learn nothing from their mistakes is endemic and becomes the 'cultural norm'.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 26, 2021

Grendel said:
Ive had enough - all my children are female. In your sad distorted male dominated world if I was a Muslim man and made them wear stupid ridiculous clothes from a mediaeval world and forced them To say they liked it even if there was a way of banning it you’d say no make them wear it

If I was a white next door neighbour who saw them crying every day as they went to school you’d say from your white ivory tower I’m islamaphobic

On ignore - gave you a chance you bigoted moronic fuckwit but that’s it

If your kids went for a night out in the tiniest microskirt and a top that barely covered anything, would you not have had something to say about it? Would you let perceived social norms of our society suggest they wear something more 'appropriate' even if they didn't want to? Or would you just let them be who they want to be?

On the whole with the Muslim dress thing I agree with you, but there will be some who do genuinely wear it because they want to. Admittedly it is probably due to being indoctrinated into their faith but you can't make the sweeping state that ALL Muslim women hate it. It's like saying all sex workers are co-erced into it against their will. Undoubtedly there will be many that are, but there will also be others doing it because they want to.

It's like saying all women want better opportunities and to do the same things as men. Some, like my nan, were absolutely dead set against women doing 'male jobs'. She was apopletic at Suzi Perry presenting the bike racing, even though she was more than qualified to do so. She was against women serving actively in the army etc. She even used to have a go at the female celebrity chefs, even though she felt cooking was a woman's job FFS. Of course she was of an older generation and was brought up that way, but so are these women. Their views might be misguided but it's what their life has told them to believe. No different to your Tory love-in - massively misguided in many ways but you still genuinely believe in it.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 26, 2021

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Nope, that wasn’t my point. Struggling businesses who are losing money or have greater expenses aren’t going to increase their staff’s wages.

The Government finds itself in a similar position. Less tax income, more expenditure and so on. So increasing the wages of public sector staff isn’t going to be a good idea at this moment in time.

The Government is already toying with taxes raises to pay for the pandemic. Why would it elect to increase its deficit?

If the economy bounces back as is being forecasted, I’d be all up for giving a windfall pay rise to public sector workers.

Because a government will see the benefits of it as those people will spend that money in the economy, leading to increased tax revenues, job creation and thus less pressure on providing benefits etc. Or that's the theory at least.

A private company you can spend more on the wages but they may not necessarily buy your product or service. Public sector it will in some way have a knock-on effect for your revenues and costs.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 26, 2021

Mucca Mad Boys said:
Let’s stay on topic here. My argument is very much the Government has increased its deficit with its response to COVID and that needs to managed. Therefore, increasing public sector pay by more than the 1% it already has isn’t a sound idea at this moment in time.

It’s furlough scheme has kept people in jobs at a huge cost. That cost needs to be paid for and the Government has increased corporate tax, frozen the tax thresholds and could even increase the tax rate too. Again, increasing the day-to-day costs of the government doesn’t seem sensible at this moment in time.

But if you stifle expenditure in the economy by depressing wages you're preventing the economy recovering in the private sector as people don't have money to spend in it. Thus tax receipts go down and more jobs are lost in the private sector, increasing costs of social security etc.

In bad times it would be far better for governments to spend to stimulate the economy than cut back and depress it further. Costs tend to be lower due to wage suppression, lack of work and low interest rates so it's a good time to get infrastructure projects done which will then lead to benefits further down the line from efficiencies they bring. Then in the good times you pay stuff back. Trouble is we always seem to do it the other way round.

Deleted member 4439 · May 26, 2021

RedSalmon said:
If you substitute "IT consultant" for senior managers within the NHS that statement is accurate beyond belief!!
How these people, with absolutely no knowledge, understanding and insight into the decisions they make and how they will impact on the people and service they are in charge of stay in post is unbelievable. The way they rewrite history, glossing over the fuck up's they have initiated and learn nothing from their mistakes is endemic and becomes the 'cultural norm'.

Senior leadership within the civil service is indeed key here. Now, to be clear, there are some very capable people at that level, and who justly hold their position in terms of the person's experience, aptitude, and intelligence. But (perhaps more than in the private sector) promotions at mid-manager level and above in the civil service rely as much on networking than in having in full measure these qualities or a record of delivery.

Those in higher positions but who are inept and inexperienced fall very easily for the out and out consultant bluffers, especially when these pander to held prejudices and simple beliefs. And because it's very difficult to evidence value in a non-profit organisation delivering public goods, any non-delivery or screw-ups is easy to cover up by the use of smoke and mirrors, including defection for blame

So yes, absolutely, those in headship positions (divisional directors an above) are ultimately the issue here.

PVA · May 26, 2021

Feels a bit dirty agreeing with Cummings... but ain't this the truth

hill83 · May 26, 2021

PVA said:
Feels a bit dirty agreeing with Cummings... but ain't this the truth

Strictly come dancing appearance confirmed for next year

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 26, 2021

Grendel said:
Blair had Campbell at the heart of government who was implicit in a suspicious motive for a war and also the death of an individual who was bullied and harangued.

Ah...Grendel with the 'but Labour' defence.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 26, 2021

Grendel said:
Blair had Campbell at the heart of government who was implicit in a suspicious motive for a war and also the death of an individual who was bullied and harangued.

Blair at least had half a brain and made a vague effort to do his job properly

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 26, 2021

Cityandproud87 said:
Funny how Cummings pretends to be all Innocent, lets not forget he was part of it last March the twat. It's probably all lies coming from his mouth.

It's what I don't get. He's throwing himself under the bus as much as anyone else. He was a major player and advisor at this time, so whatever happened is on him too, regardless of what he says. If he thinks he shouldn't have been in that position, there was nothing stopping him saying 'No - I'm not suitable'.

Also he's doing it confirming what I've always thought. He is a bitter vile c*** who couldn't give a shit about the truth. This is all a grudge about getting sacked.

Annoyingly the govt will prob get away with it purely because it's coming from his mouth, and no-one believes a word he says. It's like he watched The Thick Of It and used it as a training manual.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 26, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
It's what I don't get. He's throwing himself under the bus as much as anyone else. He was a major player and advisor at this time, so whatever happened is on him too, regardless of what he says. If he thinks he shouldn't have been in that position, there was nothing stopping him saying 'No - I'm not suitable'.

Also he's doing it confirming what I've always thought. He is a bitter vile c*** who couldn't give a shit about the truth. This is all a grudge about getting sacked.

Annoyingly the govt will prob get away with it purely because it's coming from his mouth, and no-one believes a word he says. It's like he watched The Thick Of It and used it as a training manual.

He’s going nuclear on the orders of his puppet master

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 26, 2021

RedSalmon said:
If you substitute "IT consultant" for senior managers within the NHS that statement is accurate beyond belief!!
How these people, with absolutely no knowledge, understanding and insight into the decisions they make and how they will impact on the people and service they are in charge of stay in post is unbelievable. The way they rewrite history, glossing over the fuck up's they have initiated and learn nothing from their mistakes is endemic and becomes the 'cultural norm'.

This isn't new. It's been happening for a long, long time. And not just in the public sector.

History of CEO's periodically moving on and basically doing like the managerial merry-go-round. Turn up and say 'I've been left a mess by my predecessor' stick around for about 3 years for the pay etc then leave before anyone can turn around and say you should have it sorted by now. Next person comes in and says "I've been left a mess by my predecessor" and the circle jerk continues.

The art of management is knowing when to leave before you can be blamed.

PVA · May 26, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
It's what I don't get. He's throwing himself under the bus as much as anyone else. He was a major player and advisor at this time, so whatever happened is on him too, regardless of what he says. If he thinks he shouldn't have been in that position, there was nothing stopping him saying 'No - I'm not suitable'.

Also he's doing it confirming what I've always thought. He is a bitter vile c*** who couldn't give a shit about the truth. This is all a grudge about getting sacked.

Annoyingly the govt will prob get away with it purely because it's coming from his mouth, and no-one believes a word he says. It's like he watched The Thick Of It and used it as a training manual.

Whilst I agree with your overall point he is at least admitting fault and blame, which is more than Johnson and Hancock will ever do.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · May 26, 2021

PVA said:
Whilst I agree with your overall point he is at least admitting fault and blame, which is more than Johnson and Hancock will ever do.

True. has he said much about Gove? As I'm certain he's looking to get him in to replace Boris as his next puppet since he's decided to let Carrie tell him what to do instead of Cummings.

PVA · May 26, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
True. has he said much about Gove? As I'm certain he's looking to get him in to replace Boris as his next puppet since he's decided to let Carrie tell him what to do instead of Cummings.

No mention of Gove. Stuck up for Sunak though.

RedSalmon · May 26, 2021

dubed said:
Senior leadership within the civil service is indeed key here. Now, to be clear, there are some very capable people at that level, and who justly hold their position in terms of the person's experience, aptitude, and intelligence. But (perhaps more than in the private sector) promotions at mid-manager level and above in the civil service rely as much on networking than in having in full measure these qualities or a record of delivery.

Those in higher positions but who are inept and inexperienced fall very easily for the out and out consultant bluffers, especially when these pander to held prejudices and simple beliefs. And because it's very difficult to evidence value in a non-profit organisation delivering public goods, any non-delivery or screw-ups is easy to cover up by the use of smoke and mirrors, including defection for blame

So yes, absolutely, those in headship positions (divisional directors an above) are ultimately the issue here.

Agree with every word as applicable to the NHS, but you hit on a really good point and it's the "networking". They all cover each others arse's when the shit hits the fan.

shmmeee · May 26, 2021

Grendel said:
Blair had Campbell at the heart of government who was implicit in a suspicious motive for a war and also the death of an individual who was bullied and harangued.

Noted: don’t vote for Tony Blair next election.

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