The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (131 Viewers)

skybluetony176 · Jun 26, 2016

Astute said:
You continually said that the out side lied. True. You were asking for things that the remain side lied about. That is trying to make out that they didn't. Also true.

The one thing that makes me laugh is those that listened to how Farage was going to spend the 10 billion it cost us to be in the EU each year when he will never be in a position to spend a penny of it.

If you want a debate about it try seeing the good and bad of leaving and staying. All you are coming out with is what can be seen as the bad from one side because you didn't get the result you wanted.

You really haven't read what I just said have you. I have never said that the remain side didn't lie. I'll say it again. Not many if any voted remain on the only specific lie that you can come up with (actually someone else had to come up with it for you) as it didn't form the back bone of the remain campaign. The two specific lies that the leave camp have exposed all by themselves as being lies did though make up the back bone of their campaign.

Again, I'm sure you can see the difference. I quite literally don't know anyone who didn't vote leave based on either the NHS or immigration. Lies. I don't know one person who voted remain on the premise of averting WW3 as I'm sure you don't either.

Captain Dart · Jun 26, 2016

Grendel said:
Well the only thing Mr McDonnell and here could not agree on was when to enact Article 50.

Mr McDonnell wants it done with immediate effect.

Maybe so, but that doesn't stop me pointing out some interesting facts about her.

I had to google her, I no longer know who all the ministers are, I used to back in the 80's & 90's but I don't follow these things so closely anymore.

Astute · Jun 26, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
You really haven't read what I just said have you. I have never said that the remain side didn't lie. I'll say it again. Not many if any voted remain on the only specific lie that you can come up with (actually someone else had to come up with it for you) as it didn't form the back bone of the remain campaign. The two specific lies that the leave camp have exposed all by themselves as being lies did though make up the back bone of their campaign.

Again, I'm sure you can see the difference. I quite literally don't know anyone who didn't vote leave based on either the NHS or immigration. Lies. I don't know one person who voted remain on the premise of averting WW3 as I'm sure you don't either.

So you agree that both sides were a lot of lies and scare stories.

Would you have been on here calling people uneducated for voting stay if the result had gone the other way?

Grendel · Jun 26, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
You really haven't read what I just said have you. I have never said that the remain side didn't lie. I'll say it again. Not many if any voted remain on the only specific lie that you can come up with (actually someone else had to come up with it for you) as it didn't form the back bone of the remain campaign. The two specific lies that the leave camp have exposed all by themselves as being lies did though make up the back bone of their campaign.

Again, I'm sure you can see the difference. I quite literally don't know anyone who didn't vote leave based on either the NHS or immigration. Lies. I don't know one person who voted remain on the premise of averting WW3 as I'm sure you don't either.

The very beginning of the campaign began with a lie from Cameron. When he went to negotiate with the EU he said he would "not rule anything out" and had not made his mind up which side to vote on.

Given none of those reforms were to do with economic gain that clearly was a lie or the doom around the economy was a lie.

Ashdown · Jun 26, 2016

Immigration was absolute key on this referendum, that and a rejection of the quite pathetic bullying tactics and bullshit of the 'Remain' campaign. On immigration what swung it for me was Corbyn saying that there should never be any upper limit or control over immigration..................... and on the economy , Osborne's threat of a special budget to punish the ordinary people who might have the temerity to vote against the establishment. Well fuck you ! Corbyn, Blair, Brown, Osborne and Cameron. The result has already temporarily damaged my personal economy but I guessed there would be a short term shock, but I don't care, it's a price worth paying for democracy and to give my kids the chance of being able to compete fairly for employment in the future in their own country. I know plenty of well heeled people, business owners and graduates alike who voted leave, they were not all 'Little Englanders' as some cunts dare to suggest, just ordinary folk who were sick of the ambitious and expanding arrogant monster that is the EU and the way they pretty much laughed in Cameron's face when he sought changes and concessions earlier this year. I hope the whole project collapses and we can get back to pre Brussels.

skybluetony176 · Jun 26, 2016

Astute said:
So you agree that both sides were a lot of lies and scare stories.

Would you have been on here calling people uneducated for voting stay if the result had gone the other way?

I never said otherwise. How many people that you know voted remain to avert WW3? How many people that you know voted leave did so on the premise of what was plastered down the the side of leave tour bus's and immigration?

Both sides lied but the two biggest lies not only came from one camp it also formed the back bone of their campaign. That's a big big difference.

CCFC Germany · Jun 26, 2016

Astute said:
Didn't you mean paying in a lot more than we got back? And most countries get a lot more than they put in.

Who said that we wanted rid of anyone? You may have got that from the small amount of racists that we have. Just like all countries have. Just like Germany has. But we are a small island. Our roads are getting gridlocked. We don't have the infrastructure.

As I said earlier I didn't vote. You said about the bullshit from the leave side.The remain side were at least as bad. And each time they were caught out they reduced the debate to personal attacks.

It was your EU buddies in Germany that cost the remain side a lot of votes. Part of Cameron's lies were about him getting a better deal once we had voted to remain. But they said that we already had the best deal on the table.

And I am now supposed to believe that the younger voters were right and the older more experienced voters were wrong. The younger voters moan like fuck about housing being unaffordable. This is caused by a housing shortage. Now they moan like fuck that their elders wanted the borders closed to over 500m people unless they have the trades we need. Londoners wanted the same. But what about the thousands of families already there that live in sheds or worse?

The younger voters have listened to the economists. The same ones that were totally wrong about the Euro and the banking crisis.

The Euro still isn't going to work. You need to be able to set the value of your own currency to your own needs. And I can see the start of another banking crisis. We as a country are more in debt than the last time. This is why interest rates have been kept to near zero for so many years. But if you listen to the economists everything is OK. We have millions of people just one step away from disaster. But at least this time the economists can blame it on leaving the EU.

Do you really believe, the UK will be better off economy-wise leaving the EU than staying in ?
Do you really blame the EU for the situation in the UK ?
You've got a badly run country, simple as that. (But so do we.)
One thing I agree with - the EU has to work hard, to become better. Less paperwork, more transparency and getting closer to the people.
EU is far from perfect, but it is better with it, than without.

I've been thinking + planning about moving to the UK one day. But leaving the EU was a knock-out-criteria for me.

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2016

chiefdave said:
Who our next Prime Minister is will be voted on by 0.2% of the population. The winner only needs to get votes from 0.12% of the population.

martcov said:
It's democracy, get over it...

Democracy is only 0.2% of the population getting to vote on who the PM is?

What exactly does it mean to say its democracy anyway? There's numerous voting systems, very few countries now use FPTP as it is considered to disenfranchise many voters who feel, correctly in my opinion, their vote counts for nothing.

Even looking at the referendum its not cut and dry. Other systems were put forward such as every country in the EU needing to vote out or over 50% of the electorate needing to vote out.

Of course we are where we are now and I'm not suggesting we ignore the result, just highlighting that people going around saying 52% of the population voted to leave are about as accurate as saying £350m a week extra will be going to the NHS.

SIR ERNIE · Jun 26, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
You really haven't read what I just said have you. I have never said that the remain side didn't lie. I'll say it again. Not many if any voted remain on the only specific lie that you can come up with (actually someone else had to come up with it for you) as it didn't form the back bone of the remain campaign. The two specific lies that the leave camp have exposed all by themselves as being lies did though make up the back bone of their campaign.

Again, I'm sure you can see the difference. I quite literally don't know anyone who didn't vote leave based on either the NHS or immigration. Lies. I don't know one person who voted remain on the premise of averting WW3 as I'm sure you don't either.

My sense is that the two major issues that mobilised the Leave vote were:

1. The effects of uncontrolled immigration on peoples everyday lives.
Strain on public services/school places/ hospital waiting lists etc/housing. Loss of national identity.

2. Loss of democratic voice/sovereignty and desire to demand accountability from our elected representatives.

Both these are perfectly reasonable concerns and both continued to be ignored or treated with disdain throughout the campaign by the Remain camp. That being the case, these voters would never be able to bring themselves to vote Remain even though many had voted for Cameron at the GE. I should know, I was one of them.

That's why it was no surprise that Leave votes of 60%+ were returned in areas as diverse as the traditional Labour areas of North East & Midlands on one hand and rural Conservative areas such as Sussex and Dorset on the other.

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
Let me tell you, I live part of the year in Portugal.

You might have to change that to the past tense!

SIR ERNIE said:
I export my products all across Europe including France, Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Austria, Denmark and Sweden.

Will it not be a negative impact on your business if trade restrictions and tariffs are now put in place?

Astute · Jun 26, 2016

Ashdown said:
Immigration was absolute key on this referendum, that and a rejection of the quite pathetic bullying tactics and bullshit of the 'Remain' campaign. On immigration what swung it for me was Corbyn saying that there should never be any upper limit or control over immigration..................... and on the economy , Osborne's threat of a special budget to punish the ordinary people who might have the temerity to vote against the establishment. Well fuck you ! Corbyn, Blair, Brown, Osborne and Cameron. The result has already temporarily damaged my personal economy but I guessed there would be a short term shock, but I don't care, it's a price worth paying for democracy and to give my kids the chance of being able to compete fairly for employment in the future in their own country. I know plenty of well heeled people, business owners and graduates alike who voted leave, they were not all 'Little Englanders' as some cunts dare to suggest, just ordinary folk who were sick of the ambitious and expanding arrogant monster that is the EU and the way they pretty much laughed in Cameron's face when he sought changes and concessions earlier this year. I hope the whole project collapses and we can get back to pre Brussels.

That is their biggest fear now.

They can't afford to make the payments into the system that we do. It would be a massive gamble for them to make us pay massive duties to sell to the EU as we buy much more from it than we sell to it. And now the people from other countries want to be able to vote on leaving.

At worse I see short term pain for long term gain. And now we will be able to make trade deals with the rest of the world. EU rules have stopped us doing so.

Sky Blue Harry H · Jun 26, 2016

Several things I observed post- result

People saying 'I voted leave, because things can't get any worse'
Old ladies smiling (vacantly - sorry, but true) at camera saying 'I voted leave because we're fed up of being told what to do'
...... knee jerk stuff which had no real basis for the vote.

One or two things I have thought of / discussed with my father in law since (a quiet unassuming sort, but bright as a button)
Despite the immigration 'fear', the fact is we have a seriously ageing population, and we are going to need some of these migrants to be paying taxes to pay for 'our' pensions when we get older (otherwise it will be unaffordable and people are going to have their pensions slashed)

The labour vote that likely swayed the leave vote may have led to Scotland ultimately leaving - in which case, the route back to Westminster may be even harder for a labour party.

Uncertainty/destabilisation for Gibraltar, N Ireland, (Argentina will pipe up again about the Malvinas - give it a week or two)
Lack of credible leadership in Labour party
Tory party split in half

Final note - I was particularly surprised by the number of people who had immigrant backgrounds seeming to have a fear of immigration as an issue (although they obviously disliked the Faraje 'racism' element (I work in the midst of a Hillfields community and have heard this a lot - just slightly surprised me, though this community has seen a disproportionately high element compared to the rest of the country, so maybe that accounts for it?)

martcov · Jun 26, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
Oh please, grow up. You expect anyone to believe that invented nonsense? It's all in your imagination. Dream up another one

You have proved beyond any doubt that you are not prepared to accept the possibilty of being wrong. I could send you a link to an interview that I made for German TV which would show you where I am and one of my businesses... But I don't need aggressive stalkers and you wouldn't like me saying brexit was a stupid shortsighted decision...

Sumo the Micky Quinn · Jun 26, 2016

Astute said:
You continually said that the out side lied. True. You were asking for things that the remain side lied about. That is trying to make out that they didn't. Also true.

The one thing that makes me laugh is those that listened to how Farage was going to spend the 10 billion it cost us to be in the EU each year when he will never be in a position to spend a penny of it.

If you want a debate about it try seeing the good and bad of leaving and staying. All you are coming out with is what can be seen as the bad from one side because you didn't get the result you wanted.

EXACTLY -
The one thing that makes me laugh is those that listened to how Farage was going to spend the 10 billion it cost us to be in the EU each year when he will never be in a position to spend a penny of it.

But people listened to him, because its what they wanted to hear. Again a lot of people hadn't got a clue with party Boris & Grove represented, some I spoke to thought they were Labour as they clearly knew Cameron was Conservative. Too much ignorance in such an important debate.

Farage was also the one stoking the fire on immigration when Boris and Grove were trying to put that Fire out. Boris was going on about the EU immigrants already in the UK will stay but never making headline news, whereas people I was taking to expected them to be kicked out on Friday, "Lets Get our country back and get rid of theses Polish scroungers" - the Out campaigners listened to who shouted the loudest - & on immigration it was Farage who said what they wanted to hear.

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2016

Grendel said:
John McDonnell on the radio - said this gives the uk an ideal opportunity to negotiate a better deal with Europe.

Lets hope he's right. Doesn't matter if you agree with the result or not we now need to be working to ensure we get the best deal possible and the best outcome is to get a better deal than we had before.

Grendel said:
Theresa Villiers now confirming immigration will be curbed and extra funds will be out into the economy.

Did she drill down on that? I assume she wasn't saying there would be changes to non-EU immigration or those seeking refugee status so it must be EU migrants. Is she suggesting we won't agree to freedom of movement as part of any trade deal with the EU? Personally think we will struggle to get a deal on that basis but its the only way I can see a big change to immigration.

SIR ERNIE · Jun 26, 2016

chiefdave said:
You might have to change that to the past tense!

Will it not be a negative impact on your business if trade restrictions and tariffs are now put in place?

And there you have it.

Mights and Ifs.

Mights and Ifs don't concern me.

Positivity and self confidence is the key and that's the attitude that the UK needs now. There's a massive opportunity for this country and we are going to be in a position to control our future. It's a very exciting position.

Self determination.

Grendel · Jun 26, 2016

Deleted member 5849 said:
You'd have to be an absolute moron to vote against your beliefs.

Better tell that to that dullard Corbyn and his henchman McDonnell!

Ashdown · Jun 26, 2016

People who emigrated here and have found work and settled down relatively recently are often those who have to compete with freshly arriving people at the lower end of the employment market.
I agree, we need a level of immigration, surely everyone accepts that ?! What we don't need is the uncontrolled mass movement of economic migrants, many of them male and unskilled and from cultures who refuse to fit in or integrate with a 'British way of life'. It's the numbers that are crazy, over 300000 a year simply can't be handled by our public services, not to mention sheer overcrowding, housing, environmental and pollution concerns.

Astute · Jun 26, 2016

chiefdave said:
You might have to change that to the past tense!

Will it not be a negative impact on your business if trade restrictions and tariffs are now put in place?

You got it there.

'Might' and 'if'

As has been pointed out several times we buy much more from the EU than we sell to them. The Germans would be hit the hardest if we all charged each other high tariffs. And they have the biggest say in what happens in the EU.

Some people need to look past the scare stories and have a reality check. Most of those having a go at us leaving will have as much of a say in the EU as Farage will in running our country. Sense should prevail.

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
And there you have it.

Mights and Ifs.

So you've voted for something having no idea what the result of that vote will be? That's exactly what put me off voting leave, there appeared to be no plan as to what would happen next.

Grendel · Jun 26, 2016

chiefdave said:
So you've voted for something having no idea what the result of that vote will be? That's exactly what put me off voting leave, there appeared to be no plan as to what would happen next.

Another one of Cameron's blatant lies at the last election was that net migration - a key policy - would be down to 100,000 - while remaining in the EU

That is impossible to achieve.

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2016

Astute said:
As has been pointed out several times we buy much more from the EU than we sell to them. The Germans would be hit the hardest if we all charged each other high tariffs. And they have the biggest say in what happens in the EU.

Never underestimate the ability of people to shoot themselves in the foot. As much as Germany may rely on us that reliance may be exceeded by their desire to protect the EU and punish the UK for our decision.

martcov · Jun 26, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
<<We want article 50 enacted on Tuesday and a quick negotiation to avoid uncertainty.>>

Wrong again. They want article 50 invoked to bully and scare other countries from following the UK's lead.

Right again and yes the other motive is to scare off others.

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2016

Grendel said:
Another one of Cameron's blatant lies at the last election was that net migration - a key policy - would be down to 100,000 - while remaining in the EU

That is impossible to achieve.

Indeed but that is now irrelevant as we're leaving the EU. What I would like to know now is how we are going to achieve a significant reduction in EU migration.

chiefdave · Jun 26, 2016

martcov said:
Right again and yes the other motive is to scare off others.

The whole process of leaving the EU is designed to put the power in the hands of the EU and not the leaving country. We aren't in the driving seat here and its going to take some tough negotiating from Johnson and Gove.

rondog1973 · Jun 26, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
I remember the three day working week, the power cuts, the bins not being empty. When I was six years of age I can remember telling my teacher that my dad was unemployed. Turned out that the reason he was always at home was a combination of the three day working week and regular strike action.

I also remember watching the nine o'clock news in the 80's and there being a section every night where they compared the strength of the pound to the dollar and the one thing that I remember from it was that the pound was always down. Funnily enough the news has had that for decades because of our economic outlook has improved so much. They also used to do a running total of job's created against jobs lost (every Friday night IIRC) this has also disappeared from the news. Wouldn't be surprised if they make a comeback.[/QUOTE]
This was the News at ten on ITV that ran that graphic. Red for job losses, green for job creation and you're right, the red always-by a considerable margin-exceeded the green.

Grendel · Jun 26, 2016

chiefdave said:
Never underestimate the ability of people to shoot themselves in the foot. As much as Germany may rely on us that reliance may be exceeded by their desire to protect the EU and punish the UK for our decision.

It won't. The uk is one if the most profitable markets for the German motor industry.

martcov · Jun 26, 2016

Grendel said:
It won't. The uk is one if the most profitable markets for the German motor industry.

How is Jag LR doing in Germany?

Astute · Jun 26, 2016

chiefdave said:
So you've voted for something having no idea what the result of that vote will be? That's exactly what put me off voting leave, there appeared to be no plan as to what would happen next.

We know exactly what will happen next. It is talks on how to go forward. And it should be what is best for us and the EU. Once things all calm down a bit we should all want what is best in the situation. For the EU it was us staying in it. Now they should want what is best with us out of it. And high tariffs would not be best for them. The only way I could see it happening would be them giving a warning to what happens if you leave.

wingy · Jun 26, 2016

Even Gizzela Stuart MP admits the populace are not qualified to make such a decision, we've been asked to do the job of those we elect quote.

Ashdown · Jun 26, 2016

By separating Trade deals from The Shengen disaster. Hook or by crook we have to reduce immigration to more like 50,000 per year and only those that are going to genuinely earn enough to pay the tax levels that will enable them to contribute to all of the services that need to be paid for.

Astute · Jun 26, 2016

martcov said:
How is Jag LR doing in Germany?

Nowhere near as good as Audi, BMW and VW are doing here.

Grendel · Jun 26, 2016

martcov said:
How is Jag LR doing in Germany?

Percentage growth last year was very high but overall volume is low still

Grendel · Jun 26, 2016

Astute said:
Nowhere near as good as Audi, BMW and VW are doing here.

That is very true. The German brands dominate the sectors in Germany.

Ashdown · Jun 26, 2016

Grendel said:
That is very true. The German brands dominate the sectors in Germany.

As do the French in France.

The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (131 Viewers)

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