The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (248 Viewers)

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Whilst I have absolutely no faith, confidence or trust in this shitty government, I'd like to at least know what the +++'s are before I immediately dismiss it as definitely worse than the grubby trade deal the EU has already forced upon all of its citizens without so much as an excuse me.....

 

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[fernandopartridge]

Err no.... Canada plus plus plus was another Avenue we were sounding out.... Davis wants that..

We've already got it as an EU member. How else do Deutsche Bahn et al run our railways?

 

[martcov]

We've already got it as an EU member. How else do Deutsche Bahn et al run our railways?

Got what?

 

[martcov]

Whilst I have absolutely no faith, confidence or trust in this shitty government, I'd like to at least know what the +++'s are before I immediately dismiss it as definitely worse than the grubby trade deal the EU has already forced upon all of its citizens without so much as an excuse me.....

Worse in what way? Nobody is Brexiting the EU to get more workers or consumer rights. Heard a lot of things on here and elsewhere, but not people’s rights. Brexit means less rights and protections through less red tape.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Some interesting views on it expressed through wiki

Nobel Memorial Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman has said that "there isn't a compelling case for this deal, from either a global or a national point of view."[183]

In February 2016, United Nations' human rights expert Alfred de Zayasargued that the TPP was fundamentally flawed and was based on an outdated model of trade pacts, and that governments should not sign or ratify the TPP.[184][185] According to de Zayas, the international human rights regime imposes binding legal obligations on countries, including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rightsand the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and trade must be done under the human rights regime. Under the ISDS in the TPP, investors can sue a government, while a government cannot sue investors. De Zayas argued that this asymmetry made the system unfair. He added that international law, including accountability and transparency, must prevail over trade pacts.[184]

Trans-Pacific Partnership - Wikipedia

I think the key word is 'exploring'. To be honest I would be more concerned if the powers that be were NOT exploring every possible opportunity that may benefit the nation

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[skybluetony176]

I think the key word is 'exploring'. To be honest I would be more concerned if the powers that be were NOT exploring every possible opportunity that may benefit the nation

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Including remaining in the EU or Single Market/Customs Union?

 

[clint van damme]

I think the key word is 'exploring'. To be honest I would be more concerned if the powers that be were NOT exploring every possible opportunity that may benefit the nation

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I believe that whether in or out of the EU we will end up in these type of agreements. Big business will get it's way. Some politicians will be more likely to accommodate them than others and I'm sure they'll be looked after.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

I believe that whether in or out of the EU we will end up in these type of agreements. Big business will get it's way. Some politicians will be more likely to accommodate them than others and I'm sure they'll be looked after.

Unfortunately I think your correct Clint......but, in theory at least, we get some sort of say in it when outside of the EU......whereas the ceta deal (and now defunct TTiP) was done behind closed doors and included the disgraceful ISDS legislation which was comprehensively rejected (97%) by public consultation across europe.....

...but guess what......the EU machine passed it anyway....

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

It's nice to see something other than the usual right-wing rags finally posting a story about the 'migrant crisis'.

'Migrants fuel' German violent crime rise

Can we now have an honest discussion about this please?

 

[martcov]

It's nice to see something other than the usual right-wing rags finally posting a story about the 'migrant crisis'.

'Migrants fuel' German violent crime rise

Can we now have an honest discussion about this please?

Yes. As it says:

„It also said that migrants with little hope of being giving asylum in Germany were much more likely to commit violent crime than those from war zones like Syria whose asylum was guaranteed.

"Anyone who as a war refugee regards their chances of staying in Germany as good, will endeavour not to jeopardise those prospects by criminal offences," the authors of the study said, quoted by Die Welt newspaper.

Which is also what I said at the beginning. 17% of the violent crimes in that state are committed by „Nafris“ from North Africa who make up 1% of asylum seekers.

My Arab ( Egyptian ) mate told me that the worst are the Algerians, many who come via France and are just trying it on. Hamburg has problems with some young Maroccans. No idea how and why they are here.

Big difference between Nafris and we refugees.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Including remaining in the EU or Single Market/Customs Union?

No because I live in a democracy where the people were given a choice - & told the powers that be what direction they wished to be steered. Now it's up to the powers that be to sort out the very best way for the nation to go in that direction. Unfortunately, it's a very complex thing to steer...but now we have got this far...better imo to continue in that general direction than to do any u-turn

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[Ashdown]

A good chunk of the problems on the Spanish South coast are caused by Algerians or Moroccans too. Same In the Canary Islands.

 

[martcov]

No because I live in a democracy where the people were given a choice - & told the powers that be what direction they wished to be steered. Now it's up to the powers that be to sort out the very best way for the nation to go in that direction. Unfortunately, it's a very complex thing to steer...but now we have got this far...better imo to continue in that general direction than to do any u-turn

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A choice of something we couldn’t know about. Now we are all wiser.

 

[skybluetony176]

No because I live in a democracy where the people were given a choice - & told the powers that be what direction they wished to be steered. Now it's up to the powers that be to sort out the very best way for the nation to go in that direction. Unfortunately, it's a very complex thing to steer...but now we have got this far...better imo to continue in that general direction than to do any u-turn

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You can leave the EU and remain in the trading bloc on our doorstep known as the single market you know? Or is it more sensible to join a trading bloc on the other side of the world who we do less trade with than we do with Germany alone?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

You can leave the EU and remain in the trading bloc on our doorstep known as the single market you know? Or is it more sensible to join a trading bloc on the other side of the world who we do less trade with than we do with Germany alone?

Sp your point is what in relation to my answer?

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[SkyblueBazza]

A choice of something we couldn’t know about. Now we are all wiser.

Yes but imo this is more akin to choosing to jump off a cliff than ham or cheese on your sandwich. Once you've jumped there is no going back

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[martcov]

Hopefully there are some who think otherwise … I am not in a suicide pact with the Tories and Brexiteers

 

[Grendel]

Hopefully there are some who think otherwise … I am not in a suicide pact with the Tories and Brexiteers

No you live in Germany and feed off the rest of Europe to your own benefit.

 

[martcov]

No you live in Germany and feed off the rest of Europe to your own benefit.

Yes, just ate a Currywurst- made in Germany. Now I will swig back a Corinthian Gin made on the Thames for my benefit...... enjoy your Brexit. I see you are exporting your Roy Moore, Donald Trump, AfD ( headed by the grand daughter of one Hitler’s ministers ), Austrian Freedom Party ( founded by Nazis in the 50s ), Steve Bannon endorser to the ROI to try to talk them into exiting with Brexit. That will go down well in the Republic. Irish people that I have known for years have told me that what they don’t like in some English people, is a smug arrogance. Let’s see how they take to Farage.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Irish people that I have known for years have told me that what they don’t like in some English people, is a smug arrogance.

They must hate you with a passion!

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[martcov]

They must hate you with a passion!

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Actually no. Several have said that I don’t have the “arrogance”. Funny that. Pretending that we are getting our sovereignty back and that we are a proud nation because we have blue passports is smug arrogance and I definitely don’t belong to that club.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Actually no. Several have said that I don’t have the “arrogance”. Funny that. Pretending that we are getting our sovereignty back and that we are a proud nation because we have blue passports is smug arrogance and I definitely don’t belong to that club.

No nor me

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[skybluetony176]

Sp your point is what in relation to my answer?

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In relation to your original post explore EVERY possible opportunity.

In relation to your reply if you believe in democracy you believe in the right to change your mind. After all before we had the referendum to leave after we had a referendum to join. Unless of course you’re saying that we should ignore the referendum result as we’d already voted to join.

If we’re going to explore joining trading blocs it would be prudent to explore joining the one that serves us best? If we’re going to explore joining one on the other side of the world surely it makes sense to explore joining one on our doorstep? If you do in fact want the government to explore every option that is.

 

[Sick Boy]

A good chunk of the problems on the Spanish South coast are caused by Algerians or Moroccans too. Same In the Canary Islands.

What has that got to do with the EU?

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes but imo this is more akin to choosing to jump off a cliff than ham or cheese on your sandwich. Once you've jumped there is no going back

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How is there no going back? Isn’t that exactly what a hard brexit is? Going back to what you had before. That’s the opposite of no going back.

 

[Sick Boy]

No because I live in a democracy where the people were given a choice - & told the powers that be what direction they wished to be steered. Now it's up to the powers that be to sort out the very best way for the nation to go in that direction. Unfortunately, it's a very complex thing to steer...but now we have got this far...better imo to continue in that general direction than to do any u-turn

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Even the Leavers' poster boy Farage was hailing Norway and Switzerland as models for the UK to follow.

 

[skybluetony176]

Even the Leavers' poster boy Farage was hailing Norway and Switzerland as models for the UK to follow.

It would be great

 

[SkyblueBazza]

In relation to your original post explore EVERY possible opportunity.

In relation to your reply if you believe in democracy you believe in the right to change your mind. After all before we had the referendum to leave after we had a referendum to join. Unless of course you’re saying that we should ignore the referendum result as we’d already voted to join.

If we’re going to explore joining trading blocs it would be prudent to explore joining the one that serves us best? If we’re going to explore joining one on the other side of the world surely it makes sense to explore joining one on our doorstep? If you do in fact want the government to explore every option that is.

1. The original referendum result was actioned.
2. The term we joined upon changed dramatically & went well beyond simple trade deals
3. Many of the voters that voted 'in' originally would form a significant number of the 'out' voters now...as suggested by the demographics of the votes
4. >40yrs is a pretty significant exploration already. We are now exploring how both parties can work best together in trading with less of the other 'conditions' & restrictions that perplex people

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[SkyblueBazza]

How is there no going back? Isn’t that exactly what a hard brexit is? Going back to what you had before. That’s the opposite of no going back.

Well you go jump off Beachy Head & then decide you want to stay atop it looking at the view...that might help lol

As far as the leave vote is concerned - I said IMO

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[SkyblueBazza]

Even the Leavers' poster boy Farage was hailing Norway and Switzerland as models for the UK to follow.

And???

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[Sick Boy]

And???

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Ermmm...both are within the single market and goes to show that messages were more than a little mixed.

 

[skybluetony176]

Well you go jump off Beachy Head & then decide you want to stay atop it looking at the view...that might help lol

As far as the leave vote is concerned - I said IMO

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If I wanted to jump of beachy head I would have voted leave based on the argument presented at the time.

I’ve only suggested what you did, explore every opportunity. Every opportunity includes leaving the EU but retaining membership of the single market. You seem to mean every opportunity but...

 

[skybluetony176]

1. The original referendum result was actioned.
2. The term we joined upon changed dramatically & went well beyond simple trade deals
3. Many of the voters that voted 'in' originally would form a significant number of the 'out' voters now...as suggested by the demographics of the votes
4. >40yrs is a pretty significant exploration already. We are now exploring how both parties can work best together in trading with less of the other 'conditions' & restrictions that perplex people

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The terms changed were agreed by our elected government, that’s democracy. We always had the veto option which our democratically elected government didn’t use. That’s democracy. A lot happened in those forty years including living standards rising, expendable income rising etc. Things improved immeasurably in the U.K. as EU members. People seem to ignore that.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Ermmm...both are within the single market and goes to show that messages were more than a little mixed.

Ah...back over that old ground. Messages/lies from both camps might well have confused the issues for some. Thought we had all agreed that

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[SkyblueBazza]

If I wanted to jump of beachy head I would have voted leave based on the argument presented at the time.

I’ve only suggested what you did, explore every opportunity. Every opportunity includes leaving the EU but retaining membership of the single market. You seem to mean every opportunity but...

But what? We ARE exploring effective, mutually beneficial ways of trading with the EU already - that forms part of the exiting agreement doesn't it?

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