Sorry to raise this again / Dale Evans (21 Viewers)
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Bonotelli01
Active Member
I couldn't say 100% but I seriously doubt he has won anything. Maybe a couple of quid on an acca which was the germination of the story but nothing significant. The night after he was at the Ricoh with Joe Elliot his Uncle got a call from him at 1am because he needed him to pay his £70 bar bill.
Bonotelli01
Active Member
That's right. They had more to lose. A lot more. And some people in that situation puff their chest out and deal with it. Some bury their heads. His family did the latter. That's wrong but I bet not unusual if you were to put 100 other families in the same situation.
olderskyblue
Well-Known Member
I think it's my first post on this subject, as I never believed it from the moment he spouted his crap on CWR.
I worked with a guy for about 6 years in the 80's, not closely, but in the same office. He was a great lad, really sociable and funny. Would help you out if you needed it, always up for a trip to the pub, loved his football and an all round nice guy. Mid 90's I started up a business with him. Huge mistake. It was only by working so closely with him I found out he was a compulsive liar. All the other people in the business realised he was a shyster as well, and no one trusted him or believed anything he said.
Anyway, I parted ways with him, as did everyone else in the business.
How did his family deal with him? It seems his wife just used to let him spout his bullshit, she had heard many a tall tale, and everyone else must know he was full of it too, mustn't they? It took some years, but she finally left him, his kids despised him (he never ever paid any money to his ex and family after they split) his best friend since school days (who he had cheated to help try to save the business) finally gave up on him. This guy came to see me, to ask why we had all left, so I told him the web of lies we had heard over the years. This was when he found out that he had signed up to a lot of debt to help him out that he thought was "temporary" but realised he was in line to lose nearly £30K.
He knew his mate could be a bit of a bullshitter, but he was a good lad, so it wouldn't cause any harm, surely? That's what he had thought since junior school as mates with him. (He was about 40yrs old by this time). He learnt the hard way
Not one person thought he needed help. I thought he needed a good slap. Most of his mates only ever saw the tall funny tales, so he was still "the same old mate" to everyone until they found out how far it had gone, and that he had cheated another mate out of dosh.
Moral? It's easy to talk about mental illness, but none of us thought that about this guy. He was just a liar, billy bullshitter. end of. No-one suggested he get help, they just distanced themselves from him. I wouldn't be so hard on his friends and family, that's all, and wouldn't be so quick to label him mentally ill either.
I worked with a guy for about 6 years in the 80's, not closely, but in the same office. He was a great lad, really sociable and funny. Would help you out if you needed it, always up for a trip to the pub, loved his football and an all round nice guy. Mid 90's I started up a business with him. Huge mistake. It was only by working so closely with him I found out he was a compulsive liar. All the other people in the business realised he was a shyster as well, and no one trusted him or believed anything he said.
Anyway, I parted ways with him, as did everyone else in the business.
How did his family deal with him? It seems his wife just used to let him spout his bullshit, she had heard many a tall tale, and everyone else must know he was full of it too, mustn't they? It took some years, but she finally left him, his kids despised him (he never ever paid any money to his ex and family after they split) his best friend since school days (who he had cheated to help try to save the business) finally gave up on him. This guy came to see me, to ask why we had all left, so I told him the web of lies we had heard over the years. This was when he found out that he had signed up to a lot of debt to help him out that he thought was "temporary" but realised he was in line to lose nearly £30K.
He knew his mate could be a bit of a bullshitter, but he was a good lad, so it wouldn't cause any harm, surely? That's what he had thought since junior school as mates with him. (He was about 40yrs old by this time). He learnt the hard way
Not one person thought he needed help. I thought he needed a good slap. Most of his mates only ever saw the tall funny tales, so he was still "the same old mate" to everyone until they found out how far it had gone, and that he had cheated another mate out of dosh.
Moral? It's easy to talk about mental illness, but none of us thought that about this guy. He was just a liar, billy bullshitter. end of. No-one suggested he get help, they just distanced themselves from him. I wouldn't be so hard on his friends and family, that's all, and wouldn't be so quick to label him mentally ill either.
Nick
Administrator
Nope, no chance in hell my wife would let me use my daughter in something like that. Promising her things when we buy this big new house, this big new life etc when it's all an act.
I can see why a kid would believe it, not an adult who's first thought should be the same kid though.
Of course people have the "what would you spend it on first if we won the lottery" type conversations "Oh id get an R8, Id get a mclaren" but if I walked in tonight to say I'd won millions my wife wouldn't believe me just because it sounded nice and wanted it to happen.
It's one thing to allow him to go on about it, it's another thing to allow your kid to be involved in it.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Agree with the former. The latter is, of course, impossible to judge from a distance in a clinical sense. It's safe to say this is not normal behaviour, however!
So even if not a medically defined mental illness, it's safe to say to function in the world, a spot of help is needed. Now of course if it's *not* a medically defined illness, it's even harder for those closest to him to get him help, or persuade him to get help.
Edit - and that's in no way to suggest that those who end up taken in / out of pocket aren't fully entitled to want to give him a good slap either.
Life's not as simple as the black and white these things often boil down to on this board, however.
Bonotelli01
Active Member
You say "Use my daughter" but I don't really think she's allowed her son to be used. At that point, it's a harmless looky-loo around a barn conversion. She may have been uncomfortable with it, but looking around a nice house is hardly going to scar him for life. I wouldn't have done it, you wouldn't, but it's no crime of the century. She has no idea at this point he's actually planning to make an offer on the bloody thing or that down the line he's going to start talking about buying football clubs and using the photos of that house as some sort of proof of wealth.
Also, you have to be careful not to make assumptions about their relationship. What if he was going to take the boy there whether she came or not. Perhaps your wife has a stronger influence on your household that his wife has?
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Desperation to get rid of SISU leads to confirmation bias amongst a lot of fans.
With the family, it's probably easier to try and believe that he had won money and dream of getting away from what could be a pretty miserable existence otherwise.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Depending on personalities and character, it's often not overly easy to challenge some people, either. Sometimes challenging can cause more harm than good to that particular unit.
It's easy to say what to do when not there.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
And it does show (in extremis!) why whoever comes forward should be challenged.
It in no way means SISU should stay, but the stuck record is that if only more people had been wary of SISU when they rocked up, and not been so desperate to get rid of Robinson & co. they'd take anyone.
We are the club, after all, who manage to prove it's a lie when you think things can't get worse!
Nick
Administrator
No, it isn't going to scar him for life but it's hardly ideal is it to have things like that happening where he is being promised this life, this new house and this and that. Also this is the only thing that's been made public so who's to say there isn't more?
I haven't said anything his family have done is a crime, just think when they go along with it then it's not really ideal
If for example my brother was a serial bullshitter, always made stuff up then I wouldn't be going to look at supercars with him when he says he has won millions for something to do.
a. He would think I believed him
b. I'd tell him to shut up
c. If I saw anybody slightly believe him Id make sure they knew it was a wind up
When it came out his family were abused I asked at the time who had seen proof and didnt believe it, I also said it was out of order and way over the line. However if he was to tell a lie to the wrong person (lets say buying a gangsters house, pulling out and messing up the chain) then it's trouble back to the door isn't it? What happens if that solicitor wasn't understanding and tried to rinse him for everything he has?
Am by no means saying its the familys fault he bullshits, it just doesn't really add up why they go along with it. If they are now saying stop it / get help then fair play.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
When SISU took over, it was less about wanting specifically to get rid of Robinson et al, it was the empty threat that Robinson had made about putting the club into administration that led to a lack of proper diligence on both sides.
Bonotelli01
Active Member
I don't disagree with any of that, Nick. You're dead right. The above is exactly how I would expect someone to be behave and the concerns I would expect them to have. What I'm saying is that in the actual midst of a situation like that some people behave strangely. At the time of looking around that house there would have been no concerns about him actually making an offer for it. Even for Dale, that was going further then anyone would expect. It was seeing that offer acceptance letter that first made me go "woah.. you've gone too far here, mate". This was of course before he decided he was buying a football club and some idiot let him on the radio.
I think he kept taking them deeper and by the time they realised something had to be done there wasn't much they could do. That's what I think.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
And people who should have known better went with the lines that the only way to save the club was to let SISU do what they wanted. Shareholders were pressured to give up their shares so the takeover could go through, Elliot ramped up the clock is ticking narrative... SISU escaped scrutiny as they were saviours.
And nobody asked why...
But we've done this, and they're here. And frankly I was of a mind (despite challenging potential owners) that whatever loon we got next could only be a step up.
Think this episode has proved that wrong, eh. There's always someone worse off!
Nick
Administrator
From what you are saying though it's calculated and he knows what he is doing as opposed to somebody with a condition which means they don't know what they are doing, the risks etc. That makes it so much worse.
olderskyblue
Well-Known Member
Agreed. That was my point really. The guy I mentioned, no-one considered him mentally ill, even after knowing him and hearing his bullshit for 30 odd years, so we can't just assume it from a message board and facebook...
Nick
Administrator
It was probably more people thinking that, not believing somebody could be such a fool to let it go that far and put his family at risk.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
It sounds to me that he gets gratification from the esteem of others that comes with his actions. That's the driver for his actions, I don't think he's that bothered about any other ramifications as he's too thick to realise.
Nick
Administrator
Surprised he has got away with it for so long without pissing the wrong people off.
Bonotelli01
Active Member
Yes, he knows what he's doing. As I say, its an addiction rather than a delusion. But a very real addiction. And I'm not sure you can quite label it "calculating" because he would have known the ultimate consequences and as I mentioned a few posts back actually had a calculated opportunity to come out of this with a big win. Hoffman says he's a millionaire and part of a consortium. Boom.. he's Coventry's millionaire hero for a couple of years while the consortium messes around behind the scenes.
But his addiction led him to blow that. Don't forget, regardless of legal action or anything else (which I really don't see happening) the consequences to Dale in Dale's world are already huge and they were ALWAYS going to be the consequences. He does genuinely love CCFC. I'm a life long fan but if you were to ask me who the biggest Cov fan I know is I'd have said Dale without hesitation every time. And now he can't go to a game. Can't take his Son. Can't go down the pub with the other fans. He's lost the one group of people with whom he felt an affinity. Add to that the way his son is certainly old enough to be aware of what everyone thinks of his Dad, the embarrassment to his family. The consequences are major but they weren't just foreseeable, they were inevitable. And yet, like an Alcoholic that knows the drinking is eventually going to kill them he's ploughed on. Just one more lie for the road.
I'd say he was perfectly lucid. But not calculating.
Esoterica
Well-Known Member
That's what I was saying yesterday, you don't fabricate physical evidence with mania or associated delusions. But someone with a Narcissistic personality disorder would do and that is very much a real condition (not saying that IS what he has though). They need a fix, a boost to their self esteem, and will be willing to cast their net ever wider (wider can be taller stories in this sense) to get it. The other side of that condition is that in order to get the 'fix' they will use other people to get it, even those closest to them, and it comes with an inability or at least an unwillingness to empathize with other people including the impact said actions are having on them. A little bit like a junky stealing the family silver to pay for a fix.
Bonotelli01
Active Member
That's right. That's been the fallacy of this whole thing. Where people can't see gain, they don't see motivation. Had Dale asked for a single penny from anyone or had a business to promote or anything at all that people saw as a possible gain I think they'd have called it much earlier. That there was no rational reason to say what he's said is the thing that ultimately pulled the wool over everyone's eyes.
Like the guy he was "buying" the house off. Why would anyone put an offer in on a house that they weren't going to buy? Nothing to gain from that so why would you question it?
Nick
Administrator
So surely if it's at that point and it's known as an addiction his family and closest friends should have been helping him? His mates shouldn't have given it the big I am thinking he was taking over and telling everybody it's happening. If it's an addiction then surely his family wouldn't have believed it because it sounded nice?
Like I said everybody is different, but it sounds like he still needs help in some shape or form. Which is where his mates who were giving it the "Ive known dale, he wouldnt lie, I was with him while the takeover went through" should be telling him he needs to sort it out. Obviously they can't force him.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
There can be significant consequences though.
As i stated earlier I know someone who was a victim of the lottery fraudster around 2001. Basically this guy convinced a dealer he’d won the lottery and he gave him 2 luxury cars to drive around in until his cheque came through. He’d already somehow managed to con his way into a farm house and showed this as proof. The dealer should have followed procedure but in the end went with his trust in the guy and his wife.
He very nearly lost his job and his livelihood.
This is why someone should get this guy prosecuted - he is capable of costing other people their income through his own warped ego.
Bonotelli01
Active Member
I wouldn't pretend to know much about his "mates". I don't socialise with him in that way. My take on them is that they're just a bit thick but who knows.
As far as his family goes, I suppose they've let is go thus far because the lies have always been harmless. As far as getting him help for his addiction, its only me calling it that. If you went to a mental health professional and described that would they do anything? Could you force help on someone for that addiction? Could you stop them communicating their lies to the world? I think I can see this pretty clearly for what it is but convincing someone with the power to do something of it in such a way that something could be done? Easier said than done I would say.
Bonotelli01
Active Member
Absolutely. That house sale alone. I'm sure that's caused that chap no end of problems. But I don't see legal action because in my experience people won't go to the hassle and expense without something directly to gain for themselves. Stopping him from doing it to someone else won't motivate SISU, or the solicitors or anyone else I'd have thought. I'd be amazed if he got anything more than a nasty letter from each to ensure he left them alone.
Nick
Administrator
That's why I said if he does something to the wrong person. Imagine the house sale was to a gangster and the gangster was then out of pocket (or out of a dream house). It isn't just legal action he would then need to worry about is it?
Obviously I wouldn't condone certain things but some people would have no issue kicking his front door in and hammering him while he sleeps. I know people who have had that done to them for lots less because they messed with people with no boundaries.
I also wouldn't condone him getting a slap going to a game, other fans after a beer probably would have a go at him. The least he could do is apologise for the nonsense so he could still take his lad to games.
Bonotelli01
Active Member
Yep, and I think he's been lucky to avoid any violence through this little saga. All I'm really saying is I don't think his wife could have envisaged such a thing when she took her son with him to look at a house. At this point it's still a relatively harmless "Dale Tale". Since then I think she's probably just buried her head in the sand and hoped it would go away.
Esoterica
Well-Known Member
To his mates though he might just have been a bit of a story teller before, to a certain type of person that could even make him more fun to hang out with. To his family who love him, they are close to the epicentre and may not have seen the full ripple effect of his lies before. If they think his actions aren't really hurting anyone, where do you draw him the line in the sand? How do you draw the line in the sand even? With most cases of Narcissism the affected won't think that there is even anything wrong with themselves making therapy very difficult. So what do you do about a bit of persistent but up to now mainly harmless attention seeking story telling? Threaten to leave him even though you ultimately still love him? Take the kids away?
So you drop an ultimatum. He begs you not to go, promises to stop and things improve for a while. He's stressed by it, hits the booze but the stories seem to stop. Then boom, a couple of weeks/months later he's hit the big time on the poker tables and he's suddenly got a reason why you won't leave him now and there you have a motivation to believe him - everything's going to be better now (plus this is way bigger than anything else he's made up before) . Unfortunately the volcano has well and truly blown it's lid.
Now I don't know Dale, nor am I diagnosing him or suggesting my version of events has any truth but it isn't beyond the realms of plausibility that something like this happened, which has left his family with a vested interest in him being genuine this time, even if it's not the way you or I would have handled the situation that lead up to it.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Bit then isn't an addiction an illness?
Bonotelli01
Active Member
..and that's what I said before. Mental Illness can often be subjective in terms of when do you label something as such. At what point do you stop being an asshole and start being a sociopath? Alcoholics consider themselves to have an illness so in that sense, yes I think this is an illness. I just wanted to be clear that it isn't a delusion as described earlier in this thread. Dale does not believe that he is a millionaire.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
But this is the shades of grey.
Take someone who struggles not to eat entire cheesecakes if they're left in their fridge. It's a facetious example, but the point is many / most people would say well just stop eating them, it's simple.
But if they can't... that's not a medically defined problem. At the same time, people can't stop someone from eating them (they've tried
) even though they'd like them to. The person eating them may also be fully aware it's not great, but the short term gratification wins.Now of course according to norms, Mr. Evans shouldn't make up bullshit, people shouldn't believe for a second the bullshit, and we go on with our lives. Let's face it, if nobody had believed a word of his poker winnings, we wouldn'tbe here in the first place but... that doesn't make the people who believed it responsible either, does it?
It obviously makes him responsible, but it's not as simple as him just stopping, or him being ill.
It is safe to say his behaviour hasn't been normal! It's also safe to say for his own sake, he needs to take steps to stop this happening in the future... but that's not so easy either is it? If it was, we'd all be perfect.
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Nick
Administrator
Hoffman did though, that's the worrying thing as well.
Bonotelli01
Active Member
..and, more practically how do you make use of that fact. I don't think I could ring the NHS and get someone sectioned for an addition to lying. I doubt there's a designated rehab facility. So whether you or I call it an illness or not, what use is it?
Bonotelli01
Active Member
Yeah. I'd actually love to know what it is he showed Hoffman. I remember discussing this with someone at the time and the only conclusion I could come to was that Hoffman decided (wrongly) he didn't have much to lose. Either Dale had the money and so stroking his ego a little made the consortium's pot a little bigger or he would turn out not to be and they've lost nothing. Miscalculation if that is the case because it has cost him a fair amount of respect I would say.
But who knows..