Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (296 Viewers)

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 29, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Apparently they've privately ordered millions more Pfizer doses?

You might well be right. I remember reading this a while ago, posted the link for reference.

"At a meeting with EU diplomats in July, a Commission official said the EU had declined an offer of 500 million doses from Pfizer and BioNTech because it was too expensive, an internal EU document seen by Reuters shows."

EU to order more Pfizer vaccine after declining earlier offer

The European Union will take up its option to buy up to 100 million more doses of Pfizer and BioNTech's COVID-19 vaccine after turning down an opportunity in July for a much bigger deal, according to EU officials and an internal document.

www.reuters.com

Sky Blue Pete · Jan 29, 2021

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You might well be right. I remember reading this a while ago, posted the link for reference.

"At a meeting with EU diplomats in July, a Commission official said the EU had declined an offer of 500 million doses from Pfizer and BioNTech because it was too expensive, an internal EU document seen by Reuters shows."

EU to order more Pfizer vaccine after declining earlier offer

The European Union will take up its option to buy up to 100 million more doses of Pfizer and BioNTech's COVID-19 vaccine after turning down an opportunity in July for a much bigger deal, according to EU officials and an internal document.

www.reuters.com

That was a bad decision

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 29, 2021

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
You might well be right. I remember reading this a while ago, posted the link for reference.

"At a meeting with EU diplomats in July, a Commission official said the EU had declined an offer of 500 million doses from Pfizer and BioNTech because it was too expensive, an internal EU document seen by Reuters shows."

EU to order more Pfizer vaccine after declining earlier offer

The European Union will take up its option to buy up to 100 million more doses of Pfizer and BioNTech's COVID-19 vaccine after turning down an opportunity in July for a much bigger deal, according to EU officials and an internal document.

www.reuters.com

I heard it mentioned on the BBC that Germany had privately made an order with Pfizer but couldn’t find confirmation. If so, it’s then a bit hypocritical to go asking the UK to forfeit some of its supply.

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

They need to release the terms of teh contract from teh non disclosure agreement

"Von der Leyen told Deutschlandfunk radio the best-effort delivery cause in the contract was only valid as long as it was not clear whether AstraZeneca could develop a vaccine.

She said the contract contained very clear delivery amounts for December and the first three quarters of 2021, and also mentioned four production sites, two of which are in Britain.

“There are binding orders and the contract is crystal clear,” she said."

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Jan 29, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I heard it mentioned on the BBC that Germany had privately made an order with Pfizer but couldn’t find confirmation. If so, it’s then a bit hypocritical to go asking the UK to forfeit some of its supply.

The whole thing is getting nastier and nastier. I think it is best that we just stay out of it for the moment, which I think Johnson is trying to do.

jordan210 · Jan 29, 2021

David O'Day said:
They need to release the terms of teh contract from teh non disclosure agreement

"Von der Leyen told Deutschlandfunk radio the best-effort delivery cause in the contract was only valid as long as it was not clear whether AstraZeneca could develop a vaccine.

She said the contract contained very clear delivery amounts for December and the first three quarters of 2021, and also mentioned four production sites, two of which are in Britain.

“There are binding orders and the contract is crystal clear,” she said."

Its funny how the EU keep telling AZ to show the contract. Almost like the EU cant find there's or they want AZ to be the ones to break the NDA.

The people I feel sorry for are the people living in the eastern bloc of the EU who even if the EU gets some supplies. Would more than likely not see the vaccine due to France, Germany trying to take as many as possible.

Sky Blue Pete · Jan 29, 2021

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
The whole thing is getting nastier and nastier. I think it is best that we just stay out of it for the moment, which I think Johnson is trying to do.

I think Johnson should step up as world leader

For a vaccination summit. Completely blindside the eu and others.

Don’t change any of our current plans but look to manage this worldwide. I’m sure the billionaires would love to use (genuinely) their spare money to pay in to vaccinate the world in as effective manner as possible

fernandopartridge · Jan 29, 2021

David O'Day said:
They need to release the terms of teh contract from teh non disclosure agreement

"Von der Leyen told Deutschlandfunk radio the best-effort delivery cause in the contract was only valid as long as it was not clear whether AstraZeneca could develop a vaccine.

She said the contract contained very clear delivery amounts for December and the first three quarters of 2021, and also mentioned four production sites, two of which are in Britain.

“There are binding orders and the contract is crystal clear,” she said."

That makes no sense at all

clint van damme · Jan 29, 2021

jordan210 said:
Its funny how the EU keep telling AZ to show the contract. Almost like the EU cant find there's or they want AZ to be the ones to break the NDA.

The people I feel sorry for are the people living in the eastern bloc of the EU who even if the EU gets some supplies. Would more than likely not see the vaccine due to France, Germany trying to take as many as possible.

If we have or if we get excess vaccines there's a massive PR opportunity here for the UK.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 29, 2021

Sky Blue Pete said:
I think Johnson should step up as world leader

For a vaccination summit. Completely blindside the eu and others.

Don’t change any of our current plans but look to manage this worldwide. I’m sure the billionaires would love to use (genuinely) their spare money to pay in to vaccinate the world in as effective manner as possible

If he did that Nicola Sturgeon would start her own one but half an hour earlier

jordan210 · Jan 29, 2021

clint van damme said:
If we have or if we get excess vaccines there's a massive PR opportunity here for the UK.

Indeed. Maybe we need to get a Hercules painted as a giant union flag for vaccine delivery's to the EU.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 29, 2021

jordan210 said:
Indeed. Maybe we need to get a Hercules painted as a giant union flag for vaccine delivery's to the EU.

Just don’t send it to Ireland then

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

fernandopartridge said:
That makes no sense at all

It does if the contract guarantees the order. What the EU are saying is as soon as the Vaccine worked and was viable the contract became guaranteed.

Basically the EU state that the contract is only best endeavours whilst it was in development.

AZ can release the contract, the EU has said it's ok for them to do so.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 29, 2021

David O'Day said:
It does if the contract guarantees the order. What the EU are saying is as soon as the Vaccine worked and was viable the contract became guaranteed.

Basically the EU state that the contract is only best endeavours whilst it was in development.

AZ can release the contract, the EU has said it's ok for them to do so.

In my view the UK should grant the release of excess supplies but I don’t believe those exist at the moment.

jordan210 · Jan 29, 2021

jordan210 · Jan 29, 2021

the old Blame the UK

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

jordan210 said:

it's redacted as AZ haven't waived their part of the ND clause

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

jordan210 said:

Also the redacted bits appear to be cost related not supply.

jordan210 · Jan 29, 2021

David O'Day said:
it's redacted as AZ haven't waived their part of the ND clause

there are 40 odd pages of contract on the EU site. the commercially sensitive bit is what's blacked out.

basically this will be an argument of what does best efforts mean

SBT · Jan 29, 2021

David O'Day said:
"Von der Leyen told Deutschlandfunk radio

It's much more fun reading this when you don't speak any German and can imagine this interview conducted by a reporter playing wah-wah guitar and beginning each question with "GET UP-AH"

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

jordan210 said:
there are 40 odd pages of contract on the EU site. the commercially sensitive bit is what's blacked out.

basically this will be an argument of what does best efforts mean

It does say best reasonable efforts to manufacture at EU sites and that the vaccine may be supplied from non EU sites.

If that is correct the EU may have a point in the diversion of supplies from the UK. It's just AZ seem to have entered into a contract with the UK that doesn't allow that.

Have AZ agreed contracts with 2 entities that clash?

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

Reading that contract as well it includes the UK factories in the EU supply chain?

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 29, 2021

jordan210 said:
Its funny how the EU keep telling AZ to show the contract. Almost like the EU cant find there's or they want AZ to be the ones to break the NDA.

The people I feel sorry for are the people living in the eastern bloc of the EU who even if the EU gets some supplies. Would more than likely not see the vaccine due to France, Germany trying to take as many as possible.

They could call thier bluff and produce and use the Eu telling AZ to show the contract as proof they had waived the NDA.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 29, 2021

Sky Blue Pete said:
I think Johnson should step up as world leader

For a vaccination summit. Completely blindside the eu and others.

Don’t change any of our current plans but look to manage this worldwide. I’m sure the billionaires would love to use (genuinely) their spare money to pay in to vaccinate the world in as effective manner as possible

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
They could call thier bluff and produce and use the Eu telling AZ to show the contract as proof they had waived the NDA.

They have published it

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 29, 2021

David O'Day said:
Reading that contract as well it includes the UK factories in the EU supply chain?

Which would have been correct at the time but is obviously not correct now.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 29, 2021

David O'Day said:
It does say best reasonable efforts to manufacture at EU sites and that the vaccine may be supplied from non EU sites.

If that is correct the EU may have a point in the diversion of supplies from the UK. It's just AZ seem to have entered into a contract with the UK that doesn't allow that.

Have AZ agreed contracts with 2 entities that clash?

But if our contract is on similar terms we take precendence due to ordering first.

You can have a contract saying you're getting something delivered at a certain time but if there's a backlog of orders due to production/delivery problems you ain't getting it. Most you can do is possibly sue for compensation or ask for the contract to be voided (which they aren't going to do). You can't demand yours be delivered when others that have bought on the same T&C's before you are still waiting.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jan 29, 2021

David O'Day said:
They have published it

Just seen that.

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Which would have been correct at the time but is obviously not correct now.

they are separate the UK facilities and EU facilities. It says the UK is only counted as partof teh EU as per section 5.4 which is latenrative manufacturing plants

chiefdave · Jan 29, 2021

From a legal standpoint how would best effort but the EU at the head of the queue when demand worldwide far outstrips supply?

You would assume everyone else who placed orders, in some cases many months before the EU did, didn't sign up to be pushed down the queue if the EU finally got round to ordering.

Seems to boil down to the fact there is limited supply and the EU were slow to order so are behind other countries in the queue.

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
But if our contract is on similar terms we take precendence due to ordering first.

You can have a contract saying you're getting something delivered at a certain time but if there's a backlog of orders due to production/delivery problems you ain't getting it. Most you can do is possibly sue for compensation or ask for the contract to be voided (which they aren't going to do). You can't demand yours be delivered when others that have bought on the same T&C's before you are still waiting.

Their contract does seem to state the can get UK produced vaccines if clause 5.4 is triggered which the can't produce them at EU sites.

I can see why they are annoyed at AZ and sadly it's normal people who will have to pay.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 29, 2021

David O'Day said:
they are separate the UK facilities and EU facilities. It says the UK is only counted as partof teh EU as per section 5.4 which is latenrative manufacturing plants

I have seen section 5.4 and it is ambiguous on the effect of Brexit as to whether or not those sites still qualify.

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

chiefdave said:
From a legal standpoint how would best effort but the EU at the head of the queue when demand worldwide far outstrips supply?

You would assume everyone else who placed orders, in some cases many months before the EU did, didn't sign up to be pushed down the queue if the EU finally got round to ordering.

Seems to boil down to the fact there is limited supply and the EU were slow to order so are behind other countries in the queue.

The best effort is in a clause saying it will be produced in the EU which then goes on to say if this isn't possible they can supply from non EU sites.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jan 29, 2021

chiefdave said:
From a legal standpoint how would best effort but the EU at the head of the queue when demand worldwide far outstrips supply?

You would assume everyone else who placed orders, in some cases many months before the EU did, didn't sign up to be pushed down the queue if the EU finally got round to ordering.

Seems to boil down to the fact there is limited supply and the EU were slow to order so are behind other countries in the queue.

This is more how it looks to me. They can’t get their own rollout in order and are after a scapegoat

David O'Day · Jan 29, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I have seen section 5.4 and it is ambiguous on the effect of Brexit as to whether or not those sites still qualify.

No it's not

It clearly states it

Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (296 Viewers)

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