Do you want to discuss boring politics? (20 Viewers)

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
For example, claiming he only supported Corbyn because he knew Labour wouldn’t win, that women can have penises and that we will be using zero carbon electricity and saving £1400 a year on our electricity bills in 5 and a half years time.
Labour have never claimed to save you £1400 on your electricity bill with green energy. They have claimed that they will save you £300 though by decarbonising electricity generation. It’s not even that controversial if you look at the cost of producing electricity by each means. Renewables are cheaper, the more you bring renewables on line while phasing out nuclear and fossil bills should come down. It’s just basic maths. So you’re wrong on that and everything else just sounds like hyperbole.
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
Labour have never claimed to save you £1400 on your electricity bill with green energy. They have claimed that they will save you £300 though by decarbonising electricity generation. It’s not even that controversial if you look at the cost of producing electricity by each means. Renewables are cheaper, the more you bring renewables on line while phasing out nuclear and fossil bills should come down. It’s just basic maths. So you’re wrong on that and everything else just sounds like hyperbole.

see page 6

”Labour will take up to £1,400 off the annual household bill and £53 billion of energy bills for business by 2030, by delivering a cheaper, zero-carbon electricity system.”

My understanding was that zero-carbon energy was green energy. And by 2030 is 4 and a half years, so I was being overly generous there.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member

chiefdave

Well-Known Member

see page 6

”Labour will take up to £1,400 off the annual household bill and £53 billion of energy bills for business by 2030, by delivering a cheaper, zero-carbon electricity system.”

My understanding was that zero-carbon energy was green energy. And by 2030 is 4 and a half years, so I was being overly generous there.
Up to is going to be key there, devil is always in the details.

Apparently the average household energy bill is £1626.04 a year, can't imagine they're promising £1,400 off that!
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member

see page 6

”Labour will take up to £1,400 off the annual household bill and £53 billion of energy bills for business by 2030, by delivering a cheaper, zero-carbon electricity system.”

My understanding was that zero-carbon energy was green energy. And by 2030 is 4 and a half years, so I was being overly generous there.
I was quoting this article


Either way the point still stands the more you bring renewables on line while phasing out nuclear and fossil bills should come down.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Up to is going to be key there, devil is always in the details.

Apparently the average household energy bill is £1626.04 a year, can't imagine they're promising £1,400 off that!

No it’ll be the difference for a drafty detached house with single glazed windows and oil burning heating moving to insulation solar and air pumps.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
No it’ll be the difference for a drafty detached house with single glazed windows and oil burning heating moving to insulation solar and air pumps.
only had a very quick google but it looks like the £1,400 figure was the maximum (hence the up to) saving when energy prices skyrocketed a couple of years ago and the government had to step in and subsidise bills.

Essentially I think the point was if we were using our own renewables then it doesn't matter what happens elsewhere in the world we are self sufficient when it comes to energy.

Now whether that is realistically achievable or not is a different discussion.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Lol - it’s the tooting popular front

Let me guess you don’t have much of a garden and live in a terraced property

Cheer yourself up and watch the trooping of the colour
I've got a decent sized garden in comparison to modern ones. say 5m x 8m front and back. Not massive but decent enough. Much of the back is filled with a garage but it's alright. Tore out the lawn for more plants/flowers so happy enough.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Times questionnaire:
Labour 14/5
Green 13/6
LD 13/6
Tory 7/12
Reform 4/15

Tempting to have a separate thread to keep tabs on results.
 

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
Same here.

I know you're in Italy but it's really annoying how obsessed the BBC is with Farage, yet they ignore the Greens at a time when climate change is our biggest challenge, and certainly not immigration.

I'll try and be as fair as possible, cause on this thread I imagine you'll get a pat on the back from most people, but with immigration I think you're extremely wide of the mark here.

There's many places in the UK now that are minority British. That's the first point. Laugh at Farage all you want, but he has some valid angles that leftists continue to shy away from. Why do you think someone with next to no serious attributes is now beating our current government of the last several elections in the polls? 140,000 here on dependent visas at it stands. How is that sustainable at all? That's just the surface. Our policy on immigration only does one thing; drive resentment towards those that want to come here and genuinely contribute and make the country a better place. As I said, I know my post will be hounded on here, but eventually it might be worthwhile to listen, as I don't think any of you have been on the winning side of an election/referendum for the best part of twenty years.

As for the upcoming one; what is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Neither Labour or Conservatives will make this country better, I'm absolutely sure of it. Sadly, I can't see anyone else offering a better option either.

Politics at the moment is absolutely depressing as hell. I don't blame anyone for pulling the protest vote. I predict we'll see a lot of that in July. Labour will probably win though, but is that really because they are good? Not at all. It's because the Conservatives have alienated the entire nation. It's not really anything to celebrate. Utterly shit times I'm afraid.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
OK, whatever, comrade. You have to create wealth before you can horde it. Unless you are Putin or one of his chums - in which case you just steal it.

A microcosm of why wealth transfers rarely work out is lottery winners. You can give people money but if they don’t know how to use it, it’s useless and they’ll end up going back to square one or worst.

Likewise, many people are ‘trapped’ in benefits because of how UC works. For lower paid jobs, it’s barely worth working extra hours because UC is cut after a person earns an extra £293 per month. The government crunched some numbers and workers were around £3.29 better off an hour which is nothing after you take into account the costs of going to work (travel, lunches and so on). That needs to be looked at.

Likewise, the tax-free allowance needs to be increased from £12,570. Yes, this helps all tax payers barring those in the 45% tax bracket, but the biggest benefit will be those on low incomes. The original concept of the policy because taxing low earners 20% wasn’t incentivising work.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Not Tory
Not reform
Only viable party

Fair enough, I’ll preface my post with the belief that the Tories deserve to be kicked out.

That said, a lot of left leaning people in my friends and family seem to be primarily voting against the tories rather than their optimism for Starmer and the Labour Party policy programme.

Call it a prediction, but I can’t see much changing materially between this current government and the perspective Labour one. Therefore, I think that the honeymoon period will be brief and Starmer could become rapidly unpopular. From here, the demand for populism could be massive - left and right wing populism.

Personally, I don’t think Labour will win 2 elections because there’s no grand vision and that’s evident from the people on here almost begrudgingly voting Labour. The advantage Labour will have is the chaos that will follow on the political right.

Things will change, no one foreseen the Tories throwing away an 80-seat majority to near electoral extinction in one parliament. Post-WW2 there’s been nothing like it at all.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
only had a very quick google but it looks like the £1,400 figure was the maximum (hence the up to) saving when energy prices skyrocketed a couple of years ago and the government had to step in and subsidise bills.

Essentially I think the point was if we were using our own renewables then it doesn't matter what happens elsewhere in the world we are self sufficient when it comes to energy.

Now whether that is realistically achievable or not is a different discussion.

mmm

 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
There's many places in the UK now that are minority British. That's the first point. Laugh at Farage all you want, but he has some valid angles that leftists continue to shy away from. Why do you think someone with next to no serious attributes is now beating our current government of the last several elections in the polls? 140,000 here on dependent visas at it stands. How is that sustainable at all?
Where are you getting figures for minority British, are you assuming everyone non-white is not British as the only figures I can find are for ethnicity.

You mention dependent visas, restrictions have already been put in place by the current government which has resulted in a huge shortage of staff in some sectors, notably health & care. A 58% fall in applications for health & care when we're already desperately short of staff.

Universities have spoken of their concern that the restrictions on dependent visas for foreign students is placing them in difficult financial position as they are dependent on the fees overseas students pay “Everybody is waiting with bated breath to see who will go under first".

I don't think anyone would argue against removing people who are here illegal, people who are dangerous or have criminal records but that's not what we're dealing with here. When people just give a blanket less, or even no, immigrants there's never any detail in how they plan to fill the jobs they do and replace the revenue they bring.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
Where are you getting figures for minority British, are you assuming everyone non-white is not British as the only figures I can find are for ethnicity.

You mention dependent visas, restrictions have already been put in place by the current government which has resulted in a huge shortage of staff in some sectors, notably health & care. A 58% fall in applications for health & care when we're already desperately short of staff.

Universities have spoken of their concern that the restrictions on dependent visas for foreign students is placing them in difficult financial position as they are dependent on the fees overseas students pay “Everybody is waiting with bated breath to see who will go under first".

I don't think anyone would argue against removing people who are here illegal, people who are dangerous or have criminal records but that's not what we're dealing with here. When people just give a blanket less, or even no, immigrants there's never any detail in how they plan to fill the jobs they do and replace the revenue they bring.
I'm sure he just bashes the keyboard while in ChatGPT, asking for a bigoted post in inflammatory language while using 'sources' like this:

 
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MalcSB

Well-Known Member
The key words here are up to.
You are also ignoring the pledge that it electricity will be entirely zero carbon in 4.5 years or less. How long does it take to build one nuclear reactor? How many wind turbines would be needed? How many acres of land would have to disappear under solar panels (preventing the building if 5 story eyesores on those acres)?
Its bollocks.
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
only had a very quick google but it looks like the £1,400 figure was the maximum (hence the up to) saving when energy prices skyrocketed a couple of years ago and the government had to step in and subsidise bills.

Essentially I think the point was if we were using our own renewables then it doesn't matter what happens elsewhere in the world we are self sufficient when it comes to energy.

Now whether that is realistically achievable or not is a different discussion.
I agree that renewables are cheaper, but 100% renewables delivered in 4.5 years? Enough supply to support all the electric vehicles and heat pumps being forced on us? And what happens when the wind is too fierce or non existent on gloomy days? It wouldn’t matter what was happening elsewhere in the world then, would it?
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member

SIR ERNIE

Well-Known Member



The party “will not be issuing licences to explore new [oil and gas] fields as we accelerate to clean power”, a Labour spokesman confirmed on Tuesday.

It follows last weekend’s announcement that New Zealand’s government was lifting a ban on new oil and gas exploration.

The ban was announced by former prime minister Jacinda Ardern in 2018. “The world has moved on from fossil fuels,” Ardern proclaimed at the time.

New Zealand’s trailblazing policy, which was the first of its kind, became a key inspiration for the Labour Party’s own plan.

However, some in the party are now questioning the commitment after New Zealand resources minister Shane Jones last weekend denounced
its own ban as a disaster – and revoked it.

It followed three years of rising energy prices that have left 110,000 households unable to warm their homes, 19pc of households struggling with bills and 40,000 of them having their power cut off due to unpaid bills, according to Consumer NZ.

Since April the situation has further deteriorated: Transpower, the equivalent of our National Grid, warned that the nation was at high risk of blackouts.

New Zealand’s shift to renewables meant it no longer had the generating power to keep the lights on during the cold spells that mark the Antipodean winter, said Transpower, as it begged consumers to cut their electricity consumption.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
Fair enough, I’ll preface my post with the belief that the Tories deserve to be kicked out.

That said, a lot of left leaning people in my friends and family seem to be primarily voting against the tories rather than their optimism for Starmer and the Labour Party policy programme.

Call it a prediction, but I can’t see much changing materially between this current government and the perspective Labour one. Therefore, I think that the honeymoon period will be brief and Starmer could become rapidly unpopular. From here, the demand for populism could be massive - left and right wing populism.

Personally, I don’t think Labour will win 2 elections because there’s no grand vision and that’s evident from the people on here almost begrudgingly voting Labour. The advantage Labour will have is the chaos that will follow on the political right.

Things will change, no one foreseen the Tories throwing away an 80-seat majority to near electoral extinction in one parliament. Post-WW2 there’s been nothing like it at all.
I can’t believe the level of cronyism and incompetence will continue and maybe it is a last chance for democracy before populism wel and truly takes over for a season or a generation
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
I'll try and be as fair as possible, cause on this thread I imagine you'll get a pat on the back from most people, but with immigration I think you're extremely wide of the mark here.

There's many places in the UK now that are minority British. That's the first point. Laugh at Farage all you want, but he has some valid angles that leftists continue to shy away from. Why do you think someone with next to no serious attributes is now beating our current government of the last several elections in the polls? 140,000 here on dependent visas at it stands. How is that sustainable at all? That's just the surface. Our policy on immigration only does one thing; drive resentment towards those that want to come here and genuinely contribute and make the country a better place. As I said, I know my post will be hounded on here, but eventually it might be worthwhile to listen, as I don't think any of you have been on the winning side of an election/referendum for the best part of twenty years.

As for the upcoming one; what is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Neither Labour or Conservatives will make this country better, I'm absolutely sure of it. Sadly, I can't see anyone else offering a better option either.

Politics at the moment is absolutely depressing as hell. I don't blame anyone for pulling the protest vote. I predict we'll see a lot of that in July. Labour will probably win though, but is that really because they are good? Not at all. It's because the Conservatives have alienated the entire nation. It's not really anything to celebrate. Utterly shit times I'm afraid.
No government on their own can make this country better it’s down to each of us and each community
Just a level of maturity and competence is what we need
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member



The party “will not be issuing licences to explore new [oil and gas] fields as we accelerate to clean power”, a Labour spokesman confirmed on Tuesday.

It follows last weekend’s announcement that New Zealand’s government was lifting a ban on new oil and gas exploration.

The ban was announced by former prime minister Jacinda Ardern in 2018. “The world has moved on from fossil fuels,” Ardern proclaimed at the time.

New Zealand’s trailblazing policy, which was the first of its kind, became a key inspiration for the Labour Party’s own plan.

However, some in the party are now questioning the commitment after New Zealand resources minister Shane Jones last weekend denounced
its own ban as a disaster – and revoked it.

It followed three years of rising energy prices that have left 110,000 households unable to warm their homes, 19pc of households struggling with bills and 40,000 of them having their power cut off due to unpaid bills, according to Consumer NZ.

Since April the situation has further deteriorated: Transpower, the equivalent of our National Grid, warned that the nation was at high risk of blackouts.

New Zealand’s shift to renewables meant it no longer had the generating power to keep the lights on during the cold spells that mark the Antipodean winter, said Transpower, as it begged consumers to cut their electricity consumption.
Exactly what will happen here.
Energy security should be achieved by continued use of offshore reserves and onshore fracking. As shmmeee would say, ignore the NIMBYs.
Move to net zero once China and India have made major strides in that direction.
 

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member



The party “will not be issuing licences to explore new [oil and gas] fields as we accelerate to clean power”, a Labour spokesman confirmed on Tuesday.

It follows last weekend’s announcement that New Zealand’s government was lifting a ban on new oil and gas exploration.

The ban was announced by former prime minister Jacinda Ardern in 2018. “The world has moved on from fossil fuels,” Ardern proclaimed at the time.

New Zealand’s trailblazing policy, which was the first of its kind, became a key inspiration for the Labour Party’s own plan.

However, some in the party are now questioning the commitment after New Zealand resources minister Shane Jones last weekend denounced
its own ban as a disaster – and revoked it.

It followed three years of rising energy prices that have left 110,000 households unable to warm their homes, 19pc of households struggling with bills and 40,000 of them having their power cut off due to unpaid bills, according to Consumer NZ.

Since April the situation has further deteriorated: Transpower, the equivalent of our National Grid, warned that the nation was at high risk of blackouts.

New Zealand’s shift to renewables meant it no longer had the generating power to keep the lights on during the cold spells that mark the Antipodean winter, said Transpower, as it begged consumers to cut their electricity consumption.

This is the weird and wonderful world we live in. Years of push back on nuclear and then oil and gas licences but then we (Europe) become overly reliant on a dictator and import a load of LNG from US which is something like x4 carbon emissions. Not to mention Germany keeping open/reopening dirty coal mines Prices go up and everyone expects government hand outs rather than take the opportunity to cut our own personal usage ?! 🤷‍♂️
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member



The party “will not be issuing licences to explore new [oil and gas] fields as we accelerate to clean power”, a Labour spokesman confirmed on Tuesday.

It follows last weekend’s announcement that New Zealand’s government was lifting a ban on new oil and gas exploration.

The ban was announced by former prime minister Jacinda Ardern in 2018. “The world has moved on from fossil fuels,” Ardern proclaimed at the time.

New Zealand’s trailblazing policy, which was the first of its kind, became a key inspiration for the Labour Party’s own plan.

However, some in the party are now questioning the commitment after New Zealand resources minister Shane Jones last weekend denounced
its own ban as a disaster – and revoked it.

It followed three years of rising energy prices that have left 110,000 households unable to warm their homes, 19pc of households struggling with bills and 40,000 of them having their power cut off due to unpaid bills, according to Consumer NZ.

Since April the situation has further deteriorated: Transpower, the equivalent of our National Grid, warned that the nation was at high risk of blackouts.

New Zealand’s shift to renewables meant it no longer had the generating power to keep the lights on during the cold spells that mark the Antipodean winter, said Transpower, as it begged consumers to cut their electricity consumption.

We already know what’s going to follow a Labour government looking at New Zealand and Germany. Starmer definitely tried to model himself on Schloz and maybe even Aldern too.

The German economy is the ‘sick man’ of Europe atm and Aldern’s tenure ended in failure; crime, immigration and housing all getting worse.

Renewables, frankly, has its place to supplement our existing energy demands but it’s not a serious replacement for fossil fuels, yet.
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
The well-known phenomena that solar panels can only be installed at ground level.
I’m not that stupid, however there are huge solar farms being installed in fields not all that far from where I live And there is a reason for that.

Whilst individuals and businesses may install panels on their properties, they will be more for individual consumption and contribution to the grid marginal.

Installing at ground level in fields ensures perfect alignment and production at industrial scale, facilitating the provision of the distribution infrastructure. To meet zero carbon in 4.5 years, industrial scale installation will be required at pace. It won’t be achieved of course.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member

This isn’t surprising

In truth as well the election is mirroring the 1983 election which was viewed as a huge mandate for thatcher.

The left vote was higher but split massively. Despite the real socialist Labour (not the bland Tory Light we have now) crashing they and the SDP managed 50% of the vote. The split now is on the right.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
This isn’t surprising

In truth as well the election is mirroring the 1983 election which was viewed as a huge mandate for thatcher.

The left vote was higher but split massively. Despite the real socialist Labour (not the bland Tory Light we have now) crashing they and the SDP managed 50% of the vote. The split now is on the right.
Casts an interesting light on the whole Labour strategy of whoring out to the Daily Mail and renouncing anything vaguely progressive.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Casts an interesting light on the whole Labour strategy of whoring out to the Daily Mail and renouncing anything vaguely progressive.

Streeting today admits there’s no strategy at all for reforming the care sector and pretty obvious councils will be able to adjust bands and increase above current levels.
 

PVA

Well-Known Member

"Voters are turning away from the two major parties in a huge break with the trend seen in the 2019 general election campain"


Ha Ha Smile GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
 

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