The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (53 Viewers)

[Astute]

This racket is perhaps the strongest of all arguments for leaving the European Union, but the Brexiters’ silence resounds. Among the 13 Conservative MPs who signed an open letter last week undertaking not to cut subsidies for owning or leasing land if Britain leaves the union was Iain Duncan Smith. His wife’s family’s estate, on which he lives, receives £150,000 a year of your money, handed to them by the EU.

So yet again do you agree with me about the way money is wasted and made.to look as though it goes to the needy?

 

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[Astute]

And there are people on here who maintain that both sides have lied equally. Experts can make mistaken predictions on not yet known events, remain got some things wrong and some things can still happen, but the government had access to the rules and regulations of the EU and the EU had laid out the facts. To try and deny these known facts is called lying. It is amazing that despite the results listed in your post, people are still in denial and claim they have not been conned.

And straight back into denial I see.

So how come you try to twist what I say but once you find those who want to leave the EU and make money out of them you agree with me and suddenly shoot your load.

How about looking at those who take millions out of the EU just for owning land and are very vocal about staying in the EU. It would hold more of a point than those taking millions out but willing to turn down the EU payments and being vocal on leaving.

Oh yes. Just thought. Doesn't go with the point you are trying to make. You turn a blind eye on those who are vocal on remaining and try your best on character assassination on those who are vocal on leaving.

 

[Astute]

Seems so on the face of it. There are legal means available to protest her arrest. At least she has crowd funding to support her. She is entitled to a fair extradition trial. Let’s see what happens next. It seems extremely heavy handed by the Spanish, but hopefully it will be cleared up quickly in a fair and just way.

But Spain will have the backing of the EU as they are against Catalan independence. And who makes up the rules and laws?

 

[Astute]

I am not arguing against what you are saying. Just some of the dramatic posts are exaggerated. I believe you that the Mafia in Italy are a problem every time there is money to be had.

Why did you ask for evidence if you agree?

Hopefully one day you will notice that the EU aids the rich. It also makes MEP's rich. And they end up with pensions that most people can only dream of. All they have to do is not rock the boat. Even Farage has a massive pension with them he has refused to give up rights to.

So back to the community fund. A lot of it goes to landowners for doing nothing. Then a lot of it is lost to fraud. You champion it as a very good thing. So how much actually gets to where it should go?

You say that the farmers subsidies are needed to stop mountains of food building up. I say that the money given to landowners should be given to the farmers for their produce and give it to the developing countries. It would most probably be cheaper and would do a lot of good. But the rich would get hit in the pocket.

 

[Sick Boy]

So yet again do you agree with me about the way money is wasted and made.to look as though it goes to the needy?

Not all of it will go to Mafia a lot will be spent legally, but it seems you'd rather just cut it off completely and use EU taxpayers money to fight the Mafia, which is likely to be very expensive, and once again start acts of terrorism against the state (which I'm sure you're an expert on).

 

[Astute]

Not all of it will go to Mafia a lot will be spent legally, but it seems you'd rather just cut it off completely and use EU taxpayers money to fight the Mafia, which is likely to be very expensive, and once again start acts of terrorism against the state (which I'm sure you're an expert on).

So where did I say that?

You hear that a budget of so many billions go to helping communities. But look behind the headlines and you see the truth is different. Do you think it is good that billions of it goes to landowners and fraud on top of the billions that go to landowners from the farming section of the budget.

They only have 18 people looking at fraud from the many billions that they give away each year. It is so easy to lose money. But of course you will defend it in some way.

 

[Sick Boy]

So where did I say that?

You hear that a budget of so many billions go to helping communities. But look behind the headlines and you see the truth is different. Do you think it is good that billions of it goes to landowners and fraud on top of the billions that go to landowners from the farming section of the budget.

They only have 18 people looking at fraud from the many billions that they give away each year. It is so easy to lose money. But of course you will defend it in some way.

As I mentioned in my I initial post, I lived in Alcamo and spent some time working in Castelvetrano and have seen the benefits that EU funds have brought to the west of Sicily, which as I'm sure you know is deep dark mafia country.

You won't find me defending the Mafia, yet somehow you've twised it to heap blame on the EU, unsurprisingly.

 

[Grendel]

As I mentioned in my I initial post, I lived in Alcamo and spent some time working in Castelvetrano and have seen the benefits that EU funds have brought to the west of Sicily, which I'm sure you know I'd dark mafia country. You won't find me defending the Mafia, yet somehow you've twised it to heap blame on the EU, unsurprisingly.

Italy are a net contributor to the EU so it’s not EU funds - it’s Italy funds generated by their own taxpayers.

 

[Sick Boy]

Italy are a net contributor to the EU so it’s not EU funds - it’s Italy funds generated by their own taxpayers.

Much like the UK, the country is very much focused on Rome and the rich industrial north, so I wouldn't trust them to put the same amount of money into the area.

 

[Grendel]

Much like the UK, the country is very much focused on Rome and the rich industrial north, so I wouldn't trust them to put the same amount of money into the area.

But you’d trust a bunch of faceless right wing beurocrats from Brussels.

Ok

I was just making the point that a lot of remain voters actually believe this money comes from the EU when it does not.

 

[martcov]

Which is exactly what I have been saying. And you have tried to disagree.

So do you think it is a good way for the EU to waste tax payers money?

And strangely enough he wants out of the EU. He certainly doesn't need the EU money.

I have disagreed that everything abou COP is bad and that all money goes to billionaire landlords.

No, I don't think it is a good way to waste money, but I also don't think that all money is wasted. Some undoubtedly is and there are most likely many scandals. I don't think one issue, which could be reformed, but wasn't partly because of UK objections, is enough to leave the EU.

Nothing strange about hypocrisy. There is a lot of that in the leave camp, but you seem to want to deflect from that.

 

[martcov]

But you’d trust a bunch of faceless right wing beurocrats from Brussels.

Ok

I was just making the point that a lot of remain voters actually believe this money comes from the EU when it does not.

No, you were just quoting meaningless Faragist soundbites: "faceless bureaucrats in Brussels" - which you assume for this post to be right wing. In another you may take the EUSSR left wing EU tact. For SB you use 'right wing' to make him look hypocritical.

Cheap.

 

[martcov]

Why did you ask for evidence if you agree?

Hopefully one day you will notice that the EU aids the rich. It also makes MEP's rich. And they end up with pensions that most people can only dream of. All they have to do is not rock the boat. Even Farage has a massive pension with them he has refused to give up rights to.

So back to the community fund. A lot of it goes to landowners for doing nothing. Then a lot of it is lost to fraud. You champion it as a very good thing. So how much actually gets to where it should go?

You say that the farmers subsidies are needed to stop mountains of food building up. I say that the money given to landowners should be given to the farmers for their produce and give it to the developing countries. It would most probably be cheaper and would do a lot of good. But the rich would get hit in the pocket.

I agree partly.

I don't champion it, but there are obviously reasons ( e.g. avoidance of over production in some areas ) for at least some parts. A free for all would be worse.

I don't champion fraud either. Only the people who benefit might.

I think you would be unpopular with your leaver mates if we were to give the money to developing countries. Some cannot understand improving infrastructure in Europe itself. The rich you are talking about includes prominent leavers who want the subsidies to continue after Brexit. Leaving would make no real difference to that if they get their way.

The common agriculture policy is not the be all and end all of EU membership seeing that over 80% of the UK lives in cities. Nor is fishing.

 

[martcov]

And straight back into denial I see.

So how come you try to twist what I say but once you find those who want to leave the EU and make money out of them you agree with me and suddenly shoot your load.

How about looking at those who take millions out of the EU just for owning land and are very vocal about staying in the EU. It would hold more of a point than those taking millions out but willing to turn down the EU payments and being vocal on leaving.

Oh yes. Just thought. Doesn't go with the point you are trying to make. You turn a blind eye on those who are vocal on remaining and try your best on character assassination on those who are vocal on leaving.

Character assasination? IDS and chums signed a letter asking the government to replace EU subsidies with UK ones. Hypocrisy.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Off topic slightly. @Sick Boy - anywhere you can recommend to go to in Italy for a weekend away in May time? Looking for somewhere hot and maybe a party atmosphere.

Already done Rome, Venice, Florence, Milan, Lake Garda, Lake Como and many areas of Tuscany. Cheers!

 

[Astute]

As I mentioned in my I initial post, I lived in Alcamo and spent some time working in Castelvetrano and have seen the benefits that EU funds have brought to the west of Sicily, which as I'm sure you know is deep dark mafia country.

You won't find me defending the Mafia, yet somehow you've twised it to heap blame on the EU, unsurprisingly.

So you have tried to twist what I said just like I said you would.

So where did I say against the money that actually does get used for the benefit of people that need it. Yes. Not at all.

You are happy to have a go at those wanting to leave that take money out of the pot just for owning land. But if they are remainers that seems to be OK. And it seems to be OK that this money also comes out of the pot which is supposed to help the needy. Bit as it isn't good on the EU you will deflect from it as usual.

 

[Sick Boy]

Off topic slightly. @Sick Boy - anywhere you can recommend to go to in Italy for a weekend away in May time? Looking for somewhere hot and maybe a party atmosphere.

Already done Rome, Venice, Florence, Milan, Lake Garda, Lake Como and many areas of Tuscany. Cheers!

I will have a think and let you know tomorrow mate.

 

[Astute]

I have disagreed that everything abou COP is bad and that all money goes to billionaire landlords.

No, I don't think it is a good way to waste money, but I also don't think that all money is wasted. Some undoubtedly is and there are most likely many scandals. I don't think one issue, which could be reformed, but wasn't partly because of UK objections, is enough to leave the EU.

Nothing strange about hypocrisy. There is a lot of that in the leave camp, but you seem to want to deflect from that.

Yet again who has said all the money goes to those who don't deserve or need it?

What I have said is that billions go each year where they shouldn't. Billions that could enrich peoples lives. But it just makes the rich richer.

And where did I say that we should leave the EU because of it? As usual it was something made up by you.

 

[Sick Boy]

So you have tried to twist what I said just like I said you would.

You seem to try and do it all the time.

 

[Astute]

I agree partly.

I don't champion it, but there are obviously reasons ( e.g. avoidance of over production in some areas ) for at least some parts. A free for all would be worse.

I don't champion fraud either. Only the people who benefit might.

I think you would be unpopular with your leaver mates if we were to give the money to developing countries. Some cannot understand improving infrastructure in Europe itself. The rich you are talking about includes prominent leavers who want the subsidies to continue after Brexit. Leaving would make no real difference to that if they get their way.

The common agriculture policy is not the be all and end all of EU membership seeing that over 80% of the UK lives in cities. Nor is fishing.

So why pay landowners not to grow in areas that they didn't grow anything before?

It is all about price fixing. Something not normally allowed in the EU. Bit it is OK as they made the rules up.

So how about what I said earlier? Instead of giving rich landowners billions just use the money to grow crops for people who haven't got anything to eat? Pay the farmers for growing it when there is an over supply. And most probably cheaper.

And yes the French would be fully against it.

 

[Astute]

Character assasination? IDS and chums signed a letter asking the government to replace EU subsidies with UK ones. Hypocrisy.

So where is the hypocrisy from me? I have said none of it should happen.

You don't half make some crap up.

 

[Astute]

You seem to try and do it all the time.

If only it was true.

Some seem to think they have to defend everything that the EU does. And they have to defend the remain landowners while attacking the leave landowners. They are as bad as each other. Yet the leave landowners are voting to lose the money for nothing yet get attacked more.by some. Now let me work out why......

 

[Astute]

I look forward to this getting defended.

French Farmers and EU Agricultural Subsidies

 

[martcov]

But Spain will have the backing of the EU as they are against Catalan independence. And who makes up the rules and laws?

The EU has kept out of it until now. But, you know more...

 

[martcov]

If only it was true.

Some seem to think they have to defend everything that the EU does. And they have to defend the remain landowners while attacking the leave landowners. They are as bad as each other. Yet the leave landowners are voting to lose the money for nothing yet get attacked more.by some. Now let me work out why......

They are not intending to lose anything. They want subsidies after Brexit.

 

[martcov]

If only it was true.

Some seem to think they have to defend everything that the EU does. And they have to defend the remain landowners while attacking the leave landowners. They are as bad as each other. Yet the leave landowners are voting to lose the money for nothing yet get attacked more.by some. Now let me work out why......

No they don’t. Some seek to be realistic. Not everything is wrong with supporting farmers. Reform is necessary to stop waste and abuses. The UK blocked some reforms. I wonder why?

 

[Astute]

They are not intending to lose anything. They want subsidies after Brexit.

And?

They should get nothing. Just like they should get nothing now.

 

[Astute]

No they don’t. Some seek to be realistic. Not everything is wrong with supporting farmers. Reform is necessary to stop waste and abuses. The UK blocked some reforms. I wonder why?

I take it you posted this before you saw the link I posted. And still no reply from you about it?

So is it really about the farmers?

 

[wingy]

How was the French ale Astute?

 

[martcov]

How was the French ale Astute?

Seems to have worked wonders and reached the parts that other beers can’t.... ;-)

 

[martcov]

I take it you posted this before you saw the link I posted. And still no reply from you about it?

So is it really about the farmers?[/QUOTE

Did you notice it is from 2010?

Did you see this bit:

The common argicultural policy is due for a major overhaul in 2013, and France has been busy trying to ensure that as far as possible a strong system of agricultural support is maintained after this date.

This follows:

„The new agreement on CAP reform reached in 2013 is the fruit of three years of reflection, discussion and intensive negotiation. While
continuing on the path of reform started in the early '90's this deal is historic in many respects; for the first time the entire CAP was reviewed all at once and the European Parliament acted as co- legislator with the Council.
The new CAP maintains the two pillars, but increases the links between them, thus offering a more holistic and integrated approach to policy support. Specifically it introduces a new architecture of direct payments; better targeted, more equitable and greener, an enhanced safety net and strengthened rural development. As a result it is adapted to meet the challenges ahead by being more efficient and contributing to a more competitive and sustainable EU agriculture. This Brief gives an overview of the reform and outlines the “why and how” of the new CAP 2014-2020.“

Not all reform got through partly because of the EU, but the link you posted is not the current position. I am not claiming the CAP is perfect, but some progress has been made in targeting - according to: https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/sites/agriculture/files/policy-perspectives/policy-briefs/05_en.pdf

 

[Astute]

How was the French ale Astute?

Got a taste for Grimbergen. Liked it so much I brought lots home :hilarious:

 

[Sick Boy]

Got a taste for Grimbergen. Liked it so much I brought lots home :hilarious:

You won't be able to do that much longer.

 

[Astute]

And as you said many changes couldn't be made because of the EU. They look after the rich. And most money goes to the French and Germans.

 

[Astute]

You won't be able to do that much longer.

Exactly.

Nobody knows. But they will still want our money. That is why it is a joke the way they are playing their game.

You don't seem to take me serious when I say that I think I would be better off if we stayed in. I don't know how many times I go into Europe each year. I have always planned to tour Europe when I retire for a few years at least before taking on the rest of the world.

But some don't seem to think I should mention what is wrong with the EU. I am supposed to have a go at those who want out and get money for owning land but not mention those who want to stay in the EU and continue to get millions.

I mentioned Farage and his greed earlier. But as usual it.got missed.......